The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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If you look closely at Ezekiel 47:12 you will note this is the "Eternal Kingdom" , exactly as seen in Revelation 22:1-2 below.
River of Life, Tree of Life, Fruit Every Month, Leaves of Tree For Healing/Medicine
"Same Exact Place"!
Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Revelation 22:1-2KJV
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
River of Life, Tree of Life, Fruit Every Month, Leaves of Tree For Healing/Medicine
"Same Exact Place"!
Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Revelation 22:1-2KJV
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Keep reading through to the end of the chapter.
vs 15 — Hethlon — a place in northern Palestine; Zedad — one of the landmarks on the northern border of Israel.
vs 16 — Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim — between the border of Damascus and Hamath; Hazarhatticon — by the coast of Hauran. Hauran — a province of Palestine east of the Sea of Galilee.
vs 17 — Hazarenan — the border of Damascus; Hamath — the capital of one of the kingdoms of Upper Syria, on the Orontes, int he valley of Lebanon, at the northern boundary of Palestine.
vs 18 — Hauran, Damascus, Gilead, Jordan.
I could go on, but I believe you understand the point ... these are all locations on this earth.
As far as the trees whose leaves shall not fade and the fruit thereof being for meat and the leaf for medicine, in Ez 47:8-9 we are told that the waters shall heal everything except the miry places mentioned in Ez 47:11.
vs 15 — Hethlon — a place in northern Palestine; Zedad — one of the landmarks on the northern border of Israel.
vs 16 — Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim — between the border of Damascus and Hamath; Hazarhatticon — by the coast of Hauran. Hauran — a province of Palestine east of the Sea of Galilee.
vs 17 — Hazarenan — the border of Damascus; Hamath — the capital of one of the kingdoms of Upper Syria, on the Orontes, int he valley of Lebanon, at the northern boundary of Palestine.
vs 18 — Hauran, Damascus, Gilead, Jordan.
I could go on, but I believe you understand the point ... these are all locations on this earth.
As far as the trees whose leaves shall not fade and the fruit thereof being for meat and the leaf for medicine, in Ez 47:8-9 we are told that the waters shall heal everything except the miry places mentioned in Ez 47:11.
Already replied to this ... see Post #1743
I take all prophecy literally. I literally believe the sun was turned to darkness and the moon to blood. The only question any of us can have is does the verse refer to the sun in the sky or is it referring to the Sun of Righteousness. It's that simple, sometimes the sun is just the sun in the sky, sometimes the Sun is the Son.
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well, of course remembering the irenaeus could be wrong,
could it be that if John knew the name of the beast but didn't want to reveal it,
it was because the beast was someone alive at the time, or at least those alive at the time would then have suppressed the book because it was referring to systems in place at that time?
would that follow?
could it be that if John knew the name of the beast but didn't want to reveal it,
it was because the beast was someone alive at the time, or at least those alive at the time would then have suppressed the book because it was referring to systems in place at that time?
would that follow?
KJV1611, this heaven and earth is not the new heaven and earth spoken of in Rev 21.
According to 2 Peter 3, this heaven and earth will melt with fervent heat and we look for new heavens and new earth:
2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
And while I understand that all born again believers have the arrabōn ... the earnest of the Spirit, this earnest of the Sprit is held in a tabernacle in which we all groan because we desire to be clothed in our house made in heaven:
2 Corinthians 5:
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
The fellowship with the Father we enjoy in this lifetime is through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Cor 13:12).
According to 2 Peter 3, this heaven and earth will melt with fervent heat and we look for new heavens and new earth:
2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
And while I understand that all born again believers have the arrabōn ... the earnest of the Spirit, this earnest of the Sprit is held in a tabernacle in which we all groan because we desire to be clothed in our house made in heaven:
2 Corinthians 5:
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
The fellowship with the Father we enjoy in this lifetime is through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Cor 13:12).
I see your point and have thought about this a lot because it does seem to be talking about the literal earth and heaven, maybe you can help me figure it out.
When I read these verse I see the time when God chose the Gentiles, and this happened at the cross. I also see the rest of those verses speaking of the destruction of Israel in AD 70. Then verse 17 talks about the new heaven and the new earth coming immediately after the AD 70 destruction. How do you see these verses?
Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
Isa 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa 65:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
When I read these verse I see the time when God chose the Gentiles, and this happened at the cross. I also see the rest of those verses speaking of the destruction of Israel in AD 70. Then verse 17 talks about the new heaven and the new earth coming immediately after the AD 70 destruction. How do you see these verses?
Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
Isa 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa 65:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
And what might that be? Do you see how absurd it is when people claim that the book of Revelation is all symbolic, when it is not.
The New Jerusalem is clearly a LITERAL HEAVENLY CITY with specific dimensions stated, and specific heavenly materials used in its construction. It has twelve foundations, and no city on earth has even one foundation. But to prove that you a totally incorrect we have this statement in Hebrews 11:9,10:
By faith he [Abraham] sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
This would indicate that God literally showed Abraham a vision of the heavenly city with 12 foundations, a supernatural city, since God is its builder and maker. And since its dimensions are 1500 cubic miles, it is in fact a cubic city -- which again shows that it is totally unlike any city on earth. In fact it will be a heavenly body replacing the sun, and God's light will lighten the earth from that city.
The New Jerusalem is clearly a LITERAL HEAVENLY CITY with specific dimensions stated, and specific heavenly materials used in its construction. It has twelve foundations, and no city on earth has even one foundation. But to prove that you a totally incorrect we have this statement in Hebrews 11:9,10:
By faith he [Abraham] sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
This would indicate that God literally showed Abraham a vision of the heavenly city with 12 foundations, a supernatural city, since God is its builder and maker. And since its dimensions are 1500 cubic miles, it is in fact a cubic city -- which again shows that it is totally unlike any city on earth. In fact it will be a heavenly body replacing the sun, and God's light will lighten the earth from that city.
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There are both symbolic and literal references. That is where wisdom and discernment come into play so as to ascertain which.
Regarding the measurements stating the dimensions of New Jerusalem, how do these measurements relate to a symbolic reference? Instead of saying that the city is 1500 x 1500 x 1500 miles, what if was 1000 x 1000 x 1000 miles would that affect the accuracy of describing a symbolic reference? What is the purpose of the specific measurements given?
Regarding the measurements stating the dimensions of New Jerusalem, how do these measurements relate to a symbolic reference? Instead of saying that the city is 1500 x 1500 x 1500 miles, what if was 1000 x 1000 x 1000 miles would that affect the accuracy of describing a symbolic reference? What is the purpose of the specific measurements given?