"Not by works" - false!

[EleventhHour]

@jackrosie ,

You will not learn anything from this person about what I believe.
She is very antagonistic towards me (and others) and for some reason refuses to understand, let alone agree with, what she is resisting.

Why on God's green earth would I ever agree with you self-saving salvation plan.

I detest what you preach plain and simple.

I have a Saviour ... not a quasi Saviour who requires a self-sustained belief for salvation.

 

[oyster67]

Some to be given faith and salvation, others will not be saved

… and God bases His decision soley on every man's choice whether to surrender all to Him or to reject the Blood of His own precious Son Jesus Christ. All we need to learn and study is the Bible and an ear that is attuned to His Spirit of Understanding. None of man's systematic theology textbooks are required.

 

[oyster67]

"Faith cometh by hearing gospel", not all mean hear the gospel ... therefore it makes not sense to die for those that cannot be saved.

Let's look at the what it really says:

Romans 10
10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

… and therefore all can be saved. If only all would. The problem lies with men's hearts.

All creation gives evidence and testimony to it's creator, therefore all men are without excuse in the end.

 

[Judges1318]

Your state that faith is something God gives up. If this be true, and I believe it is true, the it follows that everyone given this faith will have "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Yet, according to you, this is not the consequence of the faith God gives people.

God shows a person, via the testimony of the Holy Spirit, the truthfulness of the gospel. In that moment that person is convicted that the gospel really is true. From there they can either reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, or accept and retain it.

10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony (the testimony of the Spirit). Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:10

You contradict the definition. These people, according to you, do NOT have a conviction of things not seen.

As you can see from the verse above, they do have the conviction of the Spirit regarding things not seen.

Rather, they have the ability to decide whether or not they with have faith (the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.)

Almost.

According to the verse I shared above, in response to the irrefutable testimony of the Spirit, a person decides if they will accept and retain that testimony, or cast it away and choose not to believe it even though the Spirit showed them conclusively that the gospel really is true.

Only faith RETAINED saves. We call that 'having faith'. Only people who 'have faith' are saved. They are the ones who have retained the message of faith, not cast it off in unbelief.

 

[Fastfredy0]

… and God bases His decision soley on every man's choice whether to surrender all to Him or to reject the Blood of His own precious Son Jesus Christ.

Your theology makes the all wise God's plan dependent upon man.
My theology makes the all wise God's plan dependent upon Himself.
... consider, which seems wisest?

All we need to learn and study is the Bible and an ear that is attuned to His Spirit of Understanding. None of man's systematic theology textbooks are required.

Ephesians 4:11 And [His gifts to the church were varied and] He Himself appointed some as apostles [special messengers, representatives], some as prophets [who speak a new message from God to the people], some as evangelists [who spread the good news of salvation], and some as pastors and teachers [to shepherd and guide and instruct], 12 [and He did this] to fully equip and perfect the saints (God’s people) for works of service, to build up the body of Christ [the church];
Some have devoted their lives to learning of God. Their knowledge, though fallible, is valuable when based on scripture. Your instructions implicitly would have us ignore the TEACHERS God has provided.

Yes, study for yourself; but also take advantage of the teachers God has providers. Measure what they say against scripture. Be like the Berean's of scripture who listened to Paul and then wisely weighed what he had to say against scripture.

One's knowledge of God is crippled if one doesn't take advantage of teachers.

IMO

 

[Fastfredy0]

Romans 10
10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
… and therefore all can be saved. If only all would. The problem lies with men's hearts.

Agreed all men can be saved if they all believed. Yes, "the problem lies with men's hearts". Romans 3:11 No one understands, no one seeks God,
1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unregenerate] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God [regeneration comes from the Spirit of God], for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand
John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light
etc. etc. etc. Thus God must intervene and give faith to those He choses so that they will (not might) believe

All creation gives evidence and testimony to it's creator, therefore all men are without excuse in the end.

Agreed. All men are guilty. All have no excuse. God must intervene to save those He chooses.

 

[jackrosie]

Aside: Romans 8:28 thru Romans 9 is relevant to God choosing.
Analogy: All men are made from the same clump of clay. God molds them the way He wants. Some to be given faith and salvation, others will not be saved. God chooses whom to save and gives them varying gifts/characteristics. They HAVE NO MERIT; EVERYTHING they have has been given to them by God. 1 Cor. 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]?

Re: God gives them faith (long explanation as it is VERY IMPORTANT:

• Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh.

Furthermore, if synergism (the belief that faith is the person's responsiblity) is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Since a work is a purpose achieved by physical or mental exertion. To believe is a difficult task; the Bible says it is foolishness to the unsaved and no one seeks God. Finally, the context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do."




Amen.







I not sure I understand. I looked at my post and I don't see the context for you question. I don't see where I used the word SIMPLETON.



Depravity is the inability to do “good” in the manner which is pleasing to God (Hebrews 11:6). All men are instinctively evil. Depravity is what Gods sees when He looks at fallen man and not what He sees when He looks at Himself or those who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. Total depravity means that there is nothing in fallen man which God can find pleasure or accept. Total depravity means that man is, in spirit and soul and body, the slave of sin and the captive of the Devil; "following the prince of the power of the air”. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]." (Ephesians 2:2). It does not mean that there is nothing good in any unregenerate person as seen by himself or others. Man’s depravity demands a superhuman power for its cure. Thus, men are not saved by what may seem to them to be reasonable or unreasonable. Salvation is not a human undertaking; for man has a complete incapacity to respond to or to seek God on his own. Salvation is of God and unto God, and hence moves along lines and under conditions and necessities which are of a higher realm.

Aside: Those that think faith comes from themselves recognize the high hurdle of depravity which would seem to make it impossible for man to believe. To get around this problem, they use the concept of 'prevenient grace'; the idea that God, by his grace, removes enough 'depravity' that man can freely choose to believe. I don't hold to this view and even the proponents of the view can name but 4ish verses that vaguely support 'prevenient grace'.

Aside2: If you really want to get a handle on this stuff you should study Systematic Theology books. Maybe get 3 different authors. Systematic Theology takes the bible and organizes it by topics like: the attributes of God, the Trinity, Salvation, Sanctification, Angels, covenants, etc..
Information on each of these topics is spread throughout the Bible making it VERY DIFFICULT to understand the totality of scripture on a topic. Systematic Theology books relieve this issue for the most part.
Example: I read that the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. I thought, I must have so little faith as I cannot move a mustard seed. Well, after studying these books where persons gathered all the information about prayer together I can see that there were other aspects of God's intention for prayer to consider like "according to His will".
Anyways, here is a book example. It is a fairly easy read and author presents varying views, though he sides with my point of view.

Wayne Grudem - Systematic Theology_ An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (1994, Zondervan).epub
You will learn more from a book like this that 10 years of preaching ... more so if you study it like for school... I make notes, but that is me.

Thanks for explaining...you didn’t say simpleton I did....I was trying to understand what you meant by the word depraved....as for reading that is my downfall...but God has brought me a friend who is going to help me study the word.

I must share this with you....28 yrs ago God gave me a personal prophecy...it was an amazing experience,I received it into my heart....but my mind where the devil likes to play....as I was a new babe then...took yrs to catch up......well......God has brought that prophecy/vision back to me.....I now have the faith to believe it will come to pass.......and it is......it’s like a jigsaw puzzle coming together.......but it’s the hand of God His power bringing it to fruition......that vision he gave me never left my heart.

 

[Judges1318]

Why on God's green earth would I ever agree with you self-saving salvation plan.

I detest what you preach plain and simple.

I have a Saviour ... not a quasi Saviour who requires a self-sustained belief for salvation.

You highlighted the wrong part, lol.
You don't even understand the argument properly.
That's why no one should consult you as to what I believe.

 

[Judges1318]

You would say IMO that God has to extend mercy to everyone without exception to show mercy 'fairly'.

No, he has to reveal the truth to everyone to condemn justly.
God is impartial and shows no favoritism, yet Calvinism is literally based on favoritism.

 

[Judges1318]

Thus he instills FAITH (actually, it is not FAITH but the ability to chose to believe or not, most call this "prevenient grace").

No, it's the ability to make a decision for or against trusting in Christ based on the conviction of faith that God instills in a person's heart through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

To understand what I'm saying you'll have to recognize the difference between faith rejected and faith retained--faith being the supernatural ability to know that what you can't see really is true per Hebrews 11:1. Some reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit about the Son given by God. Others retain the conviction of the Holy Spirit about the Son. But both made their decision after being exposed to God's gracious gift of 'knowing'--his gift of 'faith'. Those who retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit we refer to as 'having faith'; they keep it. While the unbeliever doesn't retain faith. They cast it away from their heart. They do not keep it.

 

[EleventhHour]

You highlighted the wrong part, lol.
You don't even understand the argument properly.
That's why no one should consult you as to what I believe.

Are you sure

Perhaps this response "you just do not understand" is not true, when in reality we do indeed understand and are deeply troubled by it.

 

[jackrosie]

No, it's the ability to make a decision for or against trusting in Christ based on the conviction of faith that God instills in a person's heart through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

To understand what I'm saying you'll have to recognize the difference between faith rejected and faith retained--faith being the supernatural ability to know that what you can't see really is true per Hebrews 11:1. Some reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit about the Son given by God. Others retain the conviction of the Holy Spirit about the Son. But both made their decision after being exposed to God's gracious gift of 'knowing'--his gift of 'faith'. Those who retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit we refer to as 'having faith'; they keep it. While the unbeliever doesn't retain faith. They cast it away from their heart. They do not keep it.

I understand what you are saying....I received God we’ll and truly into my heart....do doubt what so ever.

But......when he showed me a personal vision and placed it in my heart.....I just could not for the life of me receive it in my mind,so I guess I insulted him by not believing it in my head......but after 28 yrs I now have the faith to believe it...and that vision never ever left my heart......which God placed there all of those yrs ago.

 

[Judges1318]

Are you sure

Perhaps this response "you just do not understand" is not true, when in reality we do indeed understand and are deeply troubled by it.

No, you do not understand what I say. You prove that in your constant accusations.

You give me a sick feeling inside. Death follows you. You're a dark person. I don't want to talk to you anymore. I don't experience God when I talk to you. Quite the opposite, in fact. You should just let me be, please. I'm worn out by your constant, critical, antagonistic badgering. That's not God. That is darkness. Leave me be, please. You too, 'eternally-grateful'. You both are holding a narcissistic grudge and that's not God. I'm not entertaining your demons anymore. May God bless you and set you free from your bondage.

 

[Judges1318]

...the faith to believe...

@jackrosie , @Fastfredy0 , this illustrates the difference between 'faith' and 'believing' that I've been talking about.

God gives us the faith......so we may believe.
No believing can occur until God gives us the faith to believe.

 

[jackrosie]

No, you do not understand what I say. You prove that in your constant accusations.

You give me a sick feeling inside. Death follows you. You're a dark person. I don't want to talk to you anymore. I don't experience God when I talk to you. Quite the opposite, in fact. You should just let me be, please. I'm worn out by your constant, critical, antagonistic badgering. That's not God. That is darkness. Leave me be, please. You too, 'eternally-grateful'. You both are holding a narcissistic grudge and that's not God. I'm not entertaining your demons anymore. May God bless you and set you free from your bondage.

I am sorry to say this....but I agree with you.....all she does is criticise and condemn....it really disturbs my spirit...that’s why I left the “works thread”. it’s like being in darkness with some on there.....I like the light in this thread.

 

[Judges1318]

...I like the light in this thread.

I do, too. It's been refreshing.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, he has to reveal the truth to everyone to condemn justly.

Respectfully, this statement is proven false by the fact that:
... God does NOT reveal the truth (the gospel) to everyone. You did not define "the truth" so I have to assume you mean the gospel.

Now, if you mean 'the truth' is defined as general revelation found in Romans 1 (they are without excuse) ... then God has revealed that 'truth' to everyone.

Anyways, justice does not require that the person by told what he did wrong. Justice is "the moral obligation to act on the basis of fair adjudication". Example: I see someone put a knife to my wife's throat and say "I am go to kill her". I can justly and fatally shot the guy without giving him an explanation. He knows what he is doing wrong. I don't need to reveal his wrong to him again.

Aside: We do not define justice, God does. Anything He does is just by definition.

God is impartial and shows no favoritism, yet Calvinism is literally based on favoritism.

You have God favor those that are righteous enough to believe him. You have God favor those according to their characteristics.
So, if I have faith God favors me, if I don't have faith God does not favor me.

I have God completely ignore the character of the person save for the character He decides to give them. God decides to give me faith and God decides to favor me for the goodness He inserted. (It is better to give than receive ... there is no one good, not one)

Conclusion in regards to salvific faith:
You have God favor you according to what you did, I have God favor me according to what He does.
You have God praise you for what you have done. I give praise to God for what he has done.
Granted, you don't state that you deserve praise for saving yourself and you don't call it a WORK even though WORK fits the dictionary definition. I explained why Paul says our FAITH is not a our WORK; because God's does it all for us. You can't explain why our FAITH is not a WORK save to say Paul says so but you don't know why Paul says so.

Caveat: This assumes I have represented your view accurately. Apologies for inaccuracies.

 

[Fastfredy0]

all she does is criticise and condemn

If someone upsets you, just put them on ignore. Problem solved.

 

[EleventhHour]

No, you do not understand what I say. You prove that in your constant accusations.

You give me a sick feeling inside. Death follows you. You're a dark person. I don't want to talk to you anymore. I don't experience God when I talk to you. Quite the opposite, in fact. You should just let me be, please. I'm worn out by your constant, critical, antagonistic badgering. That's not God. That is darkness. Leave me be, please. You too, 'eternally-grateful'. You both are holding a narcissistic grudge and that's not God. I'm not entertaining your demons anymore. May God bless you and set you free from your bondage.

"Keep believing" is your message ...I can find at least 200 posts which state "keep believing" or you will loose your salvation.

Not really hard to understand at all.

 

[jackrosie]

If someone upsets you, just put them on ignore. Problem solved.

I wish I’d known that earlier....how do I put her on ignore?