Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[acts5_29]

The exact manner and order in which those who died before us, those who died in the Tribulation, and those still alive all the way up to the Rapture is somewhat immaterial. It is something that, to be honest, we don't know. Nor do we need to know, really. The Great Commission is what it is. What acts of obedience do we need to do differently depending on whether New Jerusalem descends to earth, vs. Jerusalem on earth is transformed into a New Jerusalem, or New Jerusalem is all figurative? Anything? So why obsess about it?

Also, the point which needs to be repeatedly brought up is, very few people contest that there is a Rapture. Of course the New Testament says that there is a Rapture. It is all about the timing that is in question.

 

[Truth7t7]

One taken = the wicked

The other left = The righeous

The scripture is speaking in comparison to the wicked person vs. the righteous, not two bodies for one person.

"At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”

The harvesters are the angels. At the end of the age, the Lord will send out His angels and they will 'first' gather the weeds which represent the wicked. This is the 'one taken.' Then after that, the angels will gather the wheat and bring them into His barn, i.e. into the millennial kingdom.

So, it's not taking about the 'one taken and the other left' as the same person. And this event is not even speaking about the resurrection, but those who are gathered will be those who made it alive through the entire tribulation period. The angels will be gathering living people in this scripture. It is not referring to the gathering of the church.

The wheat and tares parable is the second coming and last day resurrection

You falsely claim that the righteous harvest "Wheat" goes into a Millennium Kingdom on this earth false!

The righteous harvest goes into the "Eternal Kingdom" in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem.

Matthew 13:38-40KJV
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...and last day resurrection...

Christ was using the metaphor of "the last day" for the end-times. It is NOT a
24 hour period, just as "the hour" He spoke about is not a 60 minute period in this connection. The "last day" extends for over 1,000 years, and the "first resurrection" (the resurrection of the just) is separated from the "second resurrection" (the resurrection of the unjust) by over 1,000 years.

Therefore one needs to bring all relevant Scriptures together to understand these things. Also the first resurrection is in three phases, just like a Hebrew harvest.

 

[Yahshua]

They do return with Him. The body is dead in the grave, but their souls are with the Lord.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

What about what is said in the following passage?

Psalm 115:17
It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

 

[Yahshua]

The souls and spirits of the saints are presently in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:1,22-24). When Christ comes "in the air" at the Resurrection/Rapture, He brings their souls and spirits with Him, joins them to their resurrected bodies, and takes them back to Heaven along with the raptured saints.

The saints are in Heaven because they have been justified by God -- declared to be righteous with the righteousness of Christ -- and based on the perfection of Christ and His perfect finished work of redemption. But they are still souls and spirits (see Acts 7). Therefore to be glorified, they need glorified, immortal, incorruptible bodies. That is God's plan of salvation for those who are in Christ. That the spirit, soul, and body be eternally blameless and perfect before God.

In the OP you say glorification is a must BEFORE the dead can enter into heaven (for the marriage supper). You even emphasize it with bold (I've reemphasized it in green bold).

[...]And the opponents of the Rapture conveniently forget that the saints must be glorified, and receive incorruptible, immortal, and glorified bodies, before they enter Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture is a single event before the Second Coming of Christ.

...but now you're saying that justification is why the dead are in heaven now. Wouldn't this mean glorification is unnecessary to enter into heaven by your reasoning?

 

[Nehemiah6]

What about what is said in the following passage? Psalm 115:17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

This passage was applicable to Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. It is no longer applicable, since all the OT saints are now in Heaven, awaiting their resurrection.

 

[Truth7t7]

The exact manner and order in which those who died before us, those who died in the Tribulation, and those still alive all the way up to the Rapture is somewhat immaterial. It is something that, to be honest, we don't know. Nor do we need to know, really. The Great Commission is what it is. What acts of obedience do we need to do differently depending on whether New Jerusalem descends to earth, vs. Jerusalem on earth is transformed into a New Jerusalem, or New Jerusalem is all figurative? Anything? So why obsess about it?

Also, the point which needs to be repeatedly brought up is, very few people contest that there is a Rapture. Of course the New Testament says that there is a Rapture. It is all about the timing that is in question.

I agree 100%

These (Pre-Tribbers) present are trying to slip their rapture under the door without a title (Pre-Trib) as if we're all sitting ignorantly watching.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In the OP you say glorification is a must BEFORE the dead can enter into heaven (for the marriage supper). You even emphasize it with bold (I've reemphasized it in greed bold).

You left our a key phrase -- "...for the Marriage of the Lamb". All the saints must be glorified before the Marriage of the Lamb, since they will accompany Christ when He comes with His saints and angels, and they will all be glorious.

 

[Nehemiah6]

These (Pre-Tribbers) present are trying to slip their rapture under the door without a title (Pre-Trib) as if we're all sitting ignorantly watching.

Your attempt to make those who hold to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture as sneaky is unbecoming. Deal with the facts, and study the Bible carefully. No one "slips under the Rapture door" which means that you so not even understand the purpose of the Rapture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I agree, but it's important to be prepared. I believe in post-trib rapture. I have heard the full case for a pre-trib rapture, but I think it's unBiblical.

One of the reasons for anything other than a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is not understanding the underlying principle which Christ accomplished:

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

Everything that God does is a legal process. And since Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, it no longer rests upon those who believe. Therefore, the believer is not appointed to suffer God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To believe that Jesus is first going to put His bride through His wrath first and then gather her afterwards, is to not truly believe that Jesus suffered God's wrath on our behalf.

So from my perspective, I fear a little that when the rapture does not come when pre-tribbers expect it to, like when the great tribulation is in full blown mark of the beast mode, a lot of people are going to lose faith and fall away. I think this pre-trib doctrine will possibly contribute to the event known as the great apostasy of the church that allows the anti-Christ to be revealed as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

You misunderstand our position. Those who are watching and anticipating Christ's appearing, the blessed hope, our attitude is to be prepared for trials and persecution, even to death. Therefore, believers holding to a pre-trib belief would not be caught off guard nor throw our hands up and turn away from Christ. I'll speak for myself. If I was here and witnessed on the news a very charismatic politician establish a seven year agreement being made, I would know immediately who he was. I would know that the first seal had been opened. Our faith is not based on a pre-wrath gathering of the church, but is in Christ. We do however have faith in His promise and understand why He is going to appear to gather His church prior to His and the Father's wrath, which brings us back to the legal process of God's wrath having already been satisfied by Christ. Simply put, God's wrath has been satisfied for those who believe in His Son.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In the OP you say glorification is a must BEFORE the dead can enter into heaven (for the marriage supper). You even emphasize it with bold (I've reemphasized it in green bold).

Please read THE ENTIRE SENTENCE once again.

"...the saints must be glorified, and receive incorruptible, immortal, and glorified bodies, before they enter Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb." The souls and spirits of those who have passed on (and are now in Heaven) will be brought to earth by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture. Then they will receive glorified bodies. Then they will re-enter Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb in their glorified bodies.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I see two who gave you a red disagree, who have no idea of what scripture teaches regarding this group event which includes the entire church dead and living and which takes place in close succession. Nor do many understand the definition of the word 'anastasis' translated as Resurrection. You'd think that when they read the part where it states that after the living in Christ will be changed and caught up to meet those who will have just resurrected in the air, that it is not something that happens individually over a long period of time, but will take place as a group event in an 'atomos' which is defined as a period of time to short to divide.

This is typical to just respond with a red disagree without any scripture to back it up. Prove me wrong with scripture DWR.

 

[Yahshua]

This passage was applicable to Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. It is no longer applicable, since all the OT saints are now in Heaven, awaiting their resurrection.

Could you reference a passage in scripture confirming this passage above is no longer applicable, for me?

You left our a key phrase -- "...for the Marriage of the Lamb". All the saints must be glorified before the Marriage of the Lamb, since they will accompany Christ when He comes with His saints and angels, and they will all be glorious.

I posted the phrase in parenthesis.

So the trumpet sounds...

The dead in Messiah descend ahead of Him...

They rise in their bodies, are transformed...

...They ascend BACK into the air (following by living believers also transformed), and return BACK to heaven with the Messiah for the marriage supper.

----

I don't think this is sound. But ok. What about those dead who are NOT in Messiah (i.e. the ones who were evil)? Where are they now prior to their resurrection event?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Right on. The Resurrection/Rapture is the CULMINATION of salvation. And this is really a truth that is hidden from too many Christians. It is the perfection of the saints that is God's ultimate plan for His children.

A GLORIOUS BODY AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
For our conversation [CITIZENSHIP] is in Heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. (Phil 3:20,21)

A PERFECT SOUL AND SPIRIT AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

Very good points of scripture. I especially like verse 3. Those having any other belief than a pre-tribulation hope of the Lord's appearing, are looking for God's wrath to take place first, not His appearing.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew and Luke do mention two bodies...they say that in that day there will be two men and two women...one will be taken and the other left. I just take the position that these two men and two women are the SAME person not different people.

The 'one taken and the other left' represents to individual groups, the wicked and the righteous, not the same people split into two. It is speaking about the weeds (wicked) and the wheat (righteous) at the end age.

 

[Truth7t7]

Two bodies is an assumption. By the way, it is not a secret gathering. It just that the event takes place in an amount of time that can't be divided. For all we know, at the time that the gathering takes place, an unbeliever could be having a conversation with his friend who is a Christian an see him disappear right before his eyes.

We can't just make up our own understanding of this, but we need to look at all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion. That fact there is no mention of two bodies is neither mentioned nor fits Jesus resurrection, which is our example. Jesus resurrected in the same body that He was crucified in, but immortal and glorified. It will be the same for all believers. The only difference is that, those who are still alive, because they are not dead, will just be changed immortal and glorified. Those who are alive at the time that the resurrection takes place will not experience physical death, but will be changed where they stand.

Your whole response here is about the believers, resurrection, and the living being caught up, your proclaimed (Pre-Trib) rapture.

Is what you "Fail" to reveal is Gods clear words on the timing of this event, as the resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" not any time before it.

1 These 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[biker]

I find it interesting that in 1 thread you're proving how wrong Preterism is while in another thread advocating for a rapture theory. By using the same Matthew 24, we clearly have Christ explaining that during the Tribulation that has never been seen before the days will be shortened for the Elect's sake.

Then He continues with, when the Tribulation emds, to watch for the signs:
1) Moon to Blood
2) Stars will fall
3) Like lightning from East to West the Son of Man returns
4) The ELECT, who went through the entire Tribulation is now gathered

If you stop using 4 specific verses and read the entire Chapter, you see where the people ask Paul what the Resurrection will be like. So, he explains it. How his explanation went from an example of something to take place, to becoming a New Doctrine, are how myths and legends are created.

But what confounds me even more. Is how 1st thru the 18th Centuries could see exactly what Paul was doing, and how the most intelligent minds of human existence in recent years, have somehow encapsulated themselves over a mythical event that is not even remotely close to what the Holy Scriptures claim.

It's good for discussions.
It's good to see how convinced people are of it.
It's something else however to watch humans hope for this myth just to miss out on going through a time period of being a true martyr for God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ was using the metaphor of "the last day" for the end-times. It is NOT a
24 hour period, just as "the hour" He spoke about is not a 60 minute period in this connection. The "last day" extends for over 1,000 years, and the "first resurrection" (the resurrection of the just) is separated from the "second resurrection" (the resurrection of the unjust) by over 1,000 years.

Therefore one needs to bring all relevant Scriptures together to understand these things. Also the first resurrection is in three phases, just like a Hebrew harvest.

Your claim "End Of The World" is a symbolic metaphor is 100% "False"

The verses below are The "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ, last day resurrection, and final judgement of all.

Matthew 13:38-40KJV
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your attempt to make those who hold to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture as sneaky is unbecoming. Deal with the facts, and study the Bible carefully. No one "slips under the Rapture door" which means that you so not even understand the purpose of the Rapture.

No such thing as a (Pre-Trib) rapture found in the scripture.

Dispensationalism falsely use verses showing the second coming and pawn this off interception as a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Runningman]

One of the reasons for anything other than a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is not understanding the underlying principle which Christ accomplished:

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

Everything that God does is a legal process. And since Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, it no longer rests upon those who believe. Therefore, the believer is not appointed to suffer God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To believe that Jesus is first going to put His bride through His wrath first and then gather her afterwards, is to not truly believe that Jesus suffered God's wrath on our behalf.



You misunderstand our position. Those who are watching and anticipating Christ's appearing, the blessed hope, our attitude is to be prepared for trials and persecution, even to death. Therefore, believers holding to a pre-trib belief would not be caught off guard nor throw our hands up and turn away from Christ. I'll speak for myself. If I was here and witnessed on the news a very charismatic politician establish a seven year agreement being made, I would know immediately who he was. I would know that the first seal had been opened. Our faith is not based on a pre-wrath gathering of the church, but is in Christ. We do however have faith in His promise and understand why He is going to appear to gather His church prior to His and the Father's wrath, which brings us back to the legal process of God's wrath having already been satisfied by Christ. Simply put, God's wrath has been satisfied for those who believe in His Son.

I think the great tribulation isn't God's wrath. I think it is the devil's wrath because his time is short.

The great tribulation will be characterized by great loss of human life and persecution. Jesus says this about the tribulation in Matthew 24:22 "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

And this isn't God exacting wrath on the earth. This verse above actually gives a hint that God's elect will be present for the great tribulation and for them it will be cut short.

The great tribulation is the devil's wrath because the devil is literally on the earth and knows his time is short, according to Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, l rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, forthe devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”

So that isn't a reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture, in my honest opinion. In fact, Jesus very blatantly says that in the world we will have tribulation as a foregone conclusion in Matthew 16:33 "have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

You are correct in saying that Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, that is absolutely Biblical. God's wrath will be exacted in an event called the Great White Throne Judgement, but only for those not found in the book of life.