"Not by works" - false!
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Definition of work: activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result
God's Greatest commandment as to what we must do: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 And Jesus replied to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
I agreed with your statement. We disagree on the reason faith is not a work.
I believe: Faith comes from God to those he selected before the foundation of the earth. Therefore, since God is the provider of our faith we did not do the work of faith. God did the work of faith. Thus, the definition of work is not manipulated. Thus Romans 4:6 logically follows when it says "the one that does not work but trusts God". John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”
You believe (correct me if I am wrong). That our faith comes from within ourselves; God helps some. You read Romans 4:6 we come to the same conclusion that me: we do not WORK for our salvation. Your contradiction (IMO) is that your definition of work differs somehow from my definition which is from the dictionary which is an authority on language.
Gee ... after reading the rest of your post I may have misunderstood... so I am sort-of striking out my first understanding.
Agreed, this is a given. We disagree upon which of us is doing this.
Hmmm... now I am confused.
Let me try to understand, this is what I think you are saying:
You agree that BELIEVING IS A WORK.
You believe we are not saved by WORKS where this means:
Any work excluding the WORK OF BELIEVING.
So:
Your believe Salvation = WORK OF BELIEVING BY THE PERSON + NO OTHER WORK
... I believe Salvation = WORK OF BELIEVING BY THE GOD + NO OTHER WORK
I'm still questioning my interpretation of what you are saying. That's my best guess. Is that right?
God's Greatest commandment as to what we must do: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 And Jesus replied to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
I agreed with your statement. We disagree on the reason faith is not a work.
I believe: Faith comes from God to those he selected before the foundation of the earth. Therefore, since God is the provider of our faith we did not do the work of faith. God did the work of faith. Thus, the definition of work is not manipulated. Thus Romans 4:6 logically follows when it says "the one that does not work but trusts God". John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”
You believe (correct me if I am wrong). That our faith comes from within ourselves; God helps some. You read Romans 4:6 we come to the same conclusion that me: we do not WORK for our salvation. Your contradiction (IMO) is that your definition of work differs somehow from my definition which is from the dictionary which is an authority on language.
Gee ... after reading the rest of your post I may have misunderstood... so I am sort-of striking out my first understanding.
Agreed, this is a given. We disagree upon which of us is doing this.
Hmmm... now I am confused.
Let me try to understand, this is what I think you are saying:
You agree that BELIEVING IS A WORK.
You believe we are not saved by WORKS where this means:
Any work excluding the WORK OF BELIEVING.
So:
Your believe Salvation = WORK OF BELIEVING BY THE PERSON + NO OTHER WORK
... I believe Salvation = WORK OF BELIEVING BY THE GOD + NO OTHER WORK
I'm still questioning my interpretation of what you are saying. That's my best guess. Is that right?
Of course, technically, 'believing' is something you do.
But it is not 'work' in regard to working to earn salvation.
And so, 'faith' and 'work' are completely different and opposed to each other that way in the Bible.
Yes, but Paul doesn't complicate the matter that way.
He simply refers to 'works' (specifically, works of the law) as one thing, and the opposite of works, 'faith', as another when it comes to being justified (made righteous before God). Works cannot make you righteous before God. But faith can. Even though, clearly, both are something you do.
Yes, but I wouldn't word it that way, because Paul doesn't.
He simply draws a sharp contrast between 'believing' and 'works' (specifically, works of the law). Even though technically, yes, they are both something you do. But since the works gospel is not defined as doing something/ anything to be saved, there is no danger in saying our believing is what we do to be made righteous before God.
I think the disconnect is coming from the fact that I'm making a distinction between 'faith' and 'believing'. Faith is a noun. It's a thing. 'Faith' is the evidence that something you can't see really is true (Hebrews 11:1). 'Believing' is an action. It's the trusting that one does in response to the evidence of faith God has given us through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
God gives the faith. We do the believing (trusting) in response to that faith. And Paul makes it crystal clear that this believing that we do is in complete and utter contrast and opposition to performing works to be justified. So there is no danger whatsoever in saying we must believe (through God's gracious gift of faith) in order to be saved. That's not a works gospel. Calvinism says it is, and so it says a person's 'believing' has to be something from outside of themselves, given to them, not performed by them, or else that would be them doing something to be saved, which they (incorrectly) say would be them saving themselves by their works. But we can easily see in scripture the works gospel is not defined that way.
But it is not 'work' in regard to working to earn salvation.
And so, 'faith' and 'work' are completely different and opposed to each other that way in the Bible.
Yes, but Paul doesn't complicate the matter that way.
He simply refers to 'works' (specifically, works of the law) as one thing, and the opposite of works, 'faith', as another when it comes to being justified (made righteous before God). Works cannot make you righteous before God. But faith can. Even though, clearly, both are something you do.
Yes, but I wouldn't word it that way, because Paul doesn't.
He simply draws a sharp contrast between 'believing' and 'works' (specifically, works of the law). Even though technically, yes, they are both something you do. But since the works gospel is not defined as doing something/ anything to be saved, there is no danger in saying our believing is what we do to be made righteous before God.
I think the disconnect is coming from the fact that I'm making a distinction between 'faith' and 'believing'. Faith is a noun. It's a thing. 'Faith' is the evidence that something you can't see really is true (Hebrews 11:1). 'Believing' is an action. It's the trusting that one does in response to the evidence of faith God has given us through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
God gives the faith. We do the believing (trusting) in response to that faith. And Paul makes it crystal clear that this believing that we do is in complete and utter contrast and opposition to performing works to be justified. So there is no danger whatsoever in saying we must believe (through God's gracious gift of faith) in order to be saved. That's not a works gospel. Calvinism says it is, and so it says a person's 'believing' has to be something from outside of themselves, given to them, not performed by them, or else that would be them doing something to be saved, which they (incorrectly) say would be them saving themselves by their works. But we can easily see in scripture the works gospel is not defined that way.
Receiving faith from God was quite mind blowing for me at first....he Showed me something..and I couldn’t believe it...it was personal....after 28 yrs of placing this in my heart...which has never left....it was my head/mind that was miles behind....well...the Lord has brought me back to that place after 28 yrs...showed me it again....I now have the faith to truly believe it will come to pass.
My question is....why did it take so long......God’s timing is perfect that’s what I get...plus believing in his strength not my own.
My question is....why did it take so long......God’s timing is perfect that’s what I get...plus believing in his strength not my own.
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Wow ... I didn't expect that answer. The semi-pelagian response is usually: "Faith is not a work". I assume you are semi-pelagian. You can correct the label if I am wrong.
Semi-pelagian Definition: a person (as a theologian of a 5th or 6th century monastery in Gaul) holding that man requires special help and not merely general guidance from God to overcome original sin, that such help is offered freely to all men, that each man must of his own initiative accept or reject this special divine help, that the individual and not God takes the first step leading to his salvation, and that God's grace toward him is conditioned by his own attitude of acceptance or rejection
I am interested in how you substantiate this.
_________________________________
Re:
You believe we are not saved by WORKS where this means:
Any work excluding the WORK OF BELIEVING.
Again, I am interested in how you substantiate this.
_____________________
Agreed
______________________________________
I agreed with the first part. Again, I am interested in how you substantiate the part in bold.
____________________________________
Agreed to your differentiation of FAITH and BELIEVING into noun and verb.
I think I agree with the rest. I am surprised that you state the part that I put in Bold. Must be something missing ... to come later.
You say “we do the believing (trusting) in response to that faith [from God]. You didn’t state that we might not believe even though God gave us faith and I think that is another VERY IMPORTANT YET MISSING aspect of your explanation. (I don’t want to put words in your mouth).
Basically agreed. The parts in BOLD are debatable..
Very good. Nice to see someone articulate his position so well. I always thought the semi-pelagian (you can use another label) side thought FAITH (noun) must come from oneself. To be honest, I don't think most semi-pelagians could articulate it the way you have. I will assume your description is the correct one and other semi-pelagians (you can use another label) of less skill cannot communicate their opinion as well or think differently.
Question: When God gives a person faith (noun) you only stated that persons respond by believing. Did you mean to say:
1) that all persons without exception respond by believing or
2) all persons without exception respond by believing or not believing?
3) Is it your contentions that those that believe are responsible to continue believing?
I might subsequent questions … but I need to understand this aspect of your explanation.
Semi-pelagian Definition: a person (as a theologian of a 5th or 6th century monastery in Gaul) holding that man requires special help and not merely general guidance from God to overcome original sin, that such help is offered freely to all men, that each man must of his own initiative accept or reject this special divine help, that the individual and not God takes the first step leading to his salvation, and that God's grace toward him is conditioned by his own attitude of acceptance or rejection
I am interested in how you substantiate this.
_________________________________
Re:
You believe we are not saved by WORKS where this means:
Any work excluding the WORK OF BELIEVING.
Again, I am interested in how you substantiate this.
_____________________
Agreed
______________________________________
I agreed with the first part. Again, I am interested in how you substantiate the part in bold.
____________________________________
Agreed to your differentiation of FAITH and BELIEVING into noun and verb.
I think I agree with the rest. I am surprised that you state the part that I put in Bold. Must be something missing ... to come later.
You say “we do the believing (trusting) in response to that faith [from God]. You didn’t state that we might not believe even though God gave us faith and I think that is another VERY IMPORTANT YET MISSING aspect of your explanation. (I don’t want to put words in your mouth).
Basically agreed. The parts in BOLD are debatable..
Very good. Nice to see someone articulate his position so well. I always thought the semi-pelagian (you can use another label) side thought FAITH (noun) must come from oneself. To be honest, I don't think most semi-pelagians could articulate it the way you have. I will assume your description is the correct one and other semi-pelagians (you can use another label) of less skill cannot communicate their opinion as well or think differently.
Question: When God gives a person faith (noun) you only stated that persons respond by believing. Did you mean to say:
1) that all persons without exception respond by believing or
2) all persons without exception respond by believing or not believing?
3) Is it your contentions that those that believe are responsible to continue believing?
I might subsequent questions … but I need to understand this aspect of your explanation.
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May I jump in for this? ...
Thanks, Fredy
!
No. What God gives us is The Blood of His dear Son so that whosoever will come may come by choosing to surrender to Jesus. Faith is our response to God's wonderful offer of Salvation.
1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. I 'contend' that we must abide in the vine. This is not works. Works is simply the result and evidence of faith. Fruits of the Spirit are also results and evidence of Salvation.
"Loss of salvation" is completely different. It is complete, total, open, willful, rebellion against what was meant for us to have freely forever.
Thanks, Fredy
!No. What God gives us is The Blood of His dear Son so that whosoever will come may come by choosing to surrender to Jesus. Faith is our response to God's wonderful offer of Salvation.
1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. I 'contend' that we must abide in the vine. This is not works. Works is simply the result and evidence of faith. Fruits of the Spirit are also results and evidence of Salvation.
"Loss of salvation" is completely different. It is complete, total, open, willful, rebellion against what was meant for us to have freely forever.
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Question: When God gives a person faith (noun) you only stated that persons respond by believing. Did you mean to say:
1) that all persons without exception respond by believing or
2) all persons without exception respond by believing or not believing?
3) Is it your contentions that those that believe are responsible to continue believing?
OK...
... Question: So do you agree with Judges that God initially gives a person faith? (Aside: since God does it, I agree this is not a WORK by the person)
__________________________________________
... You answered "YES" to question 3. Then you go on to state that it is the individual's responsibility to continue believing and state that this belief is not a WORK.
... Next Question is in regards to the word WORK of question 3:
Given: The dictionary (the authority on English language) defines WORK as "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result". A second definition is "a task or tasks to be undertaken; something a person or thing has to do. "
Since "continuing to believe' is a 'mental effort' you use to 'achieve a purpose' ( the purpose being to show love of God and complete your salvation) ... how is it that you claim your faith, which you must maintain without God's maintaining it for you, is not a work? Please use the dictionaries' definition as that is the standard of the English language and the standard of bible translation.
Aside: Anyone can create their own definition of a word and thus validate any contention ... thus I beg that you use the universally accepted source of the meanings of words...the dictionary.
Aside2: Now, if you believe God is maintaining your faith/belief for you...then I agree that is not a WORK on your part.
Thx
1) that all persons without exception respond by believing or
2) all persons without exception respond by believing or not believing?
3) Is it your contentions that those that believe are responsible to continue believing?
OK...
... Question: So do you agree with Judges that God initially gives a person faith? (Aside: since God does it, I agree this is not a WORK by the person)
__________________________________________
... You answered "YES" to question 3. Then you go on to state that it is the individual's responsibility to continue believing and state that this belief is not a WORK.
... Next Question is in regards to the word WORK of question 3:
Given: The dictionary (the authority on English language) defines WORK as "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result". A second definition is "a task or tasks to be undertaken; something a person or thing has to do. "
Since "continuing to believe' is a 'mental effort' you use to 'achieve a purpose' ( the purpose being to show love of God and complete your salvation) ... how is it that you claim your faith, which you must maintain without God's maintaining it for you, is not a work? Please use the dictionaries' definition as that is the standard of the English language and the standard of bible translation.
Aside: Anyone can create their own definition of a word and thus validate any contention ... thus I beg that you use the universally accepted source of the meanings of words...the dictionary.
Aside2: Now, if you believe God is maintaining your faith/belief for you...then I agree that is not a WORK on your part.
Thx
Some people may start out believing/trusting in God in the same way they start out believing/trusting in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later after gaining further knowledge, they find out that the politician does not line up with their original expectations, so they no longer trust in that politician.
If you read John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews here who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26).
In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus said do not believe in John 6:64. They also walked with Him no more. (vs. 66) So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus "set out to be learners and followers of Him" (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, but as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him.
If you read John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews here who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26).
In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus said do not believe in John 6:64. They also walked with Him no more. (vs. 66) So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus "set out to be learners and followers of Him" (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, but as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him.
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