Leading a Revelation study

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acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
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28
#81
The verses that say the purpose is so his servants understand what will soon take place are regendered useless if we make it about no time.
I see it differently. What about the book of Esther? Esther is about something that happened back when Persia ruled Babylon and Palestine in BC times. The book doesn't even mention God. Yet the OT scribes still include it in Tanakh with exacting detail. The book is considered a historical account about very specific events, yet at the same time we consider it not only timeless, but religious.

You need to consider why He doesn’t reveal it to your group. He always has reasons. Sometimes we need to find out why He doesn’t or if we’re not listening..
It is hard to know/impossible to know why God doesn't reveal something, without knowing what that thing even is.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#82
I actually see three major views, maybe four: it is in the future, it is in the past, and it is symbolic. Amill, for example, is neither future nor past--it is present, and symbolic. This makes Revelation relevant to our Christian life today, end times or no end times.
Amil, uses a thousand years as a metaphor in that parable "Chapter 20 "to equal unknown neither future nor past--it is symbolic . Just as through the three other witnesses "thousand years" not only in Revelation A unknown . The kind that comes like a thief in the night.

We walk by faith the unseen and not those of the number The witness of men who seeks after the things seen as if the kingdom did come by observation. . No numbering whether time or persons . David was enticed by the father of lies did. Many died, not walking by faith .

2 Corinthians 10:11-13 King James Version (KJV) Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#83
Turns out the Gordon Fee book is a free audiobook, so no feeding the Amazon juggernaut there. :)

Also, Gordon Fee has a book on Revelation. I like the path this is going.
I have that Revelation book on Kindle. I will be reading it this month to compare with other interpretations I am reading.
 
May 23, 2020
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#84
I see it differently. What about the book of Esther? Esther is about something that happened back when Persia ruled Babylon and Palestine in BC times. The book doesn't even mention God. Yet the OT scribes still include it in Tanakh with exacting detail. The book is considered a historical account about very specific events, yet at the same time we consider it not only timeless, but religious.
A book that claims to be prophesy is not read the same as a book that has no claim at all except being accurate. One can read of the life of Esther and be moved or learn something but when one reads a book that is a direct warning from God to a group, if one considers one is IN that group, then it ought to be more than merely interesting and something we can learn from. The different types of literary communication call for different responses.
It is hard to know/impossible to know why God doesn't reveal something, without knowing what that thing even is.
We were talking about wanting to understand something and the group is expecting God to reveal it, then that is the thing. But I know that if a group or person is not used to knowing when God is speaking or revealing anything in general, it is very difficult to get answers (for them) as to why. In general the answers are few and always the same, one of a few reasons why God does not reveal anything.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#85
A book that claims to be prophesy is not read the same as a book that has no claim at all except being accurate. One can read of the life of Esther and be moved or learn something but when one reads a book that is a direct warning from God to a group, if one considers one is IN that group, then it ought to be more than merely interesting and something we can learn from. The different types of literary communication call for different responses.

We were talking about wanting to understand something and the group is expecting God to reveal it, then that is the thing. But I know that if a group or person is not used to knowing when God is speaking or revealing anything in general, it is very difficult to get answers (for them) as to why. In general the answers are few and always the same, one of a few reasons why God does not reveal anything.
I would offer,

Biblically prophecy as it is written by the finger of God is like no other book. One of a kind. The literal historical the temporal is used to find the eternal meaning hid from natural unconverted mankind.

Parables using the historical account and mixing them with faith the unseen are needed to give us the vision or gospel (Hebrew 4 "mixing faith" ). It not of flesh and blood. Not what does mankind say but rather like with Peter in Mathew 16. .
How can we hear God by a faith that does work in us?

The book of Ester is written as a parable . Parables, the tool deigned to teach us how walking by faith.

If no prescription for rightly diving the parable is used . the historical literal interpretation becomes the Good Master. In that way no man can serve two teaching masters.

In Luke 9 the apostles after three attempts at understanding how faith works. They were rebuked. .Jesus declared to them. . . they known not what manner of spirit they were of.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 
May 30, 2020
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#86
Hi,

It looks like I will be leading a Bible study series on Revelation soon at my church. I thought I would try and draw from the collective wisdom of this board, and see what do you think are good ideas for leading a Revelation Bible study series? I figured that is what a Christian chat board is all about. Do you know of good Revelation study resources for leaders? Any thoughts on how to engage the group, or ground rules for social dynamics? This is supposed to be a small group, but with all the renewed interest in Revelation of late with the Covid crisis going on, I'm not so sure how "small" this group will really be.

A few talking points, so I can "seed" your input:

1) One reason we tend not to study Revelation is because we can't do it. It's divisive. We are simply incapable as a group of studying it together as a group. Yet we know this is not good. Revelation is a book in the Bible, and we need to be studying it.

2) People tend to get deeply entrenched in their individual camps. I will say, "Premillennial is *a* viewpoint," and somebody will come back and say, "No, that's the Bible. Revelation 20 says that is what will happen." So I need to get people uprooted from their trenches and study other views. Because that's what this is: a study.

3) Even "wrong" viewpoints are permitted to study. Even as Christians, we are encouraged to study the Koran and cults. We can STUDY anything. It doesn't mean we have to believe it--only understand it. Why can we study Koran, yet turn a blind spot when it comes to amillennialism?

4) I feel like a need a specific bullet item addressing Revelation's relationship with current events. It seems easy for someone to derail the discussion talking about some conspiracy theory, or whatever (this theory about Bill Gates creating the Mark of the Beast seems hot right now...); when my study is about the Bible. Some people don't even think Revelation relates to current events at all. A larger portion, I believe would say that Revelation relates to current events, but no more so than any other book of the New Testament does.

5) I feel like, in the name of keeping the study productive, that I should establish a ground rule which says you are required to allow others to present opposing viewpoints. If someone wants to present their case for postmill, give them the floor and don't argue with them. This is a study.

6) A large segment of Christians just throw up their hands and say they can't understand it. Lots of conflicting information out there--who do you believe? There's probably more of those people than there are argumentative people. What do I do to keep these people hooked, and engaged?

7) There seems to be a broad belief that Revelation contains a lot of non-essential truths (where "essential" would be something like, "Believe in Jesus and you will be saved." "There will be a pre-trib Rapture followed by a 7-year Tribulation" is not essential.). How do I keep THESE people engaged? If Revelation only contains non-essential truths, then why is it part of the Bible?

8) If I posted some lessons to this board as a first-pass, would that interest you?
What position do you have on Jesus teaching about the kingdom in the gospels? Spiritual or physical?
Acts_29. As a student of apocalyptic prophecy (Daniel & Revelation) for over thirty five years, I hold a view different than what my faith community has taught since it's conception. I believe God presents new light from time to time according to His timing, yet all churches once they have been charted fail to update earlier teachings with greater light/ understanding as God makes it know. Therefore, they are left in darkness on certain issues.
Nonetheless I have been trying to share this new light within my church and this is what I've learned. First, for most of us, religious traditions and the opinions of respected leaders are usually more important than truth itself. Traditions are familiar and predictable, whereas truth can be disruptive, humiliating, and socially divisive. Second, it is impossible to be “a defender of tradition” and at the same time, be “a seeker of truth.” These mind sets stand in opposition to each other. Third, if someone challenges the folly of a tradition, he or she will surely suffer for it. Last, if we reject or ignore the truth, failure cannot be avoided. We may arrogantly defend our ignorance, but ignorance will not save us from the outcome that truth demands.
So, should you try to introduce a study on Revelation which differs from the position held by your faith community you will face strong social resistance, and gain a new perspective in just how closed minded and bias people are over their religious views. This response is the same in all religious faiths and in all cultures and nations of the world. However! this is not a problem for God. He knew before we were created that over time Satan would lead fallen humanity into religious bias and closed minds. So God have Daniel five prophecies recorded in the book of Daniel and told him to seal up the book until, "the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4&9). So the question begs to be asked, what has God kept hidden in the book of Daniel, until the, "time of the end"? We know it wasn't the stories
of faith, or the prophecies themselves, so what was it?
The third (and deepest) level of knowledge found within the book of Daniel is the architecture (hermenutics, Laws of interpretation) of apocalyptic prophecy. The prophecies in Daniel conform to a structure or pattern that controls their timing and meaning. This structure also exists in Revelation! In other words, when we understand how the architecture of Daniel functions, we will immediately understand how the architecture in Revelation functions!
Daniel’s architecture produces four self-evident rules. These four rules are like a combination to a safe. When the four rules are properly applied, the door to understanding swings open and the prophecies make perfect sense! This point is extremely important. Portions of Daniel and much of Revelation have been a mystery for centuries. Now that the rules are available, both books make sense just as they read.
When the four rules found in Daniel are applied to Daniel and Revelation, a comprehensive story unfolds that is completely harmonious with everything the Bible reveals about God’s love, character, and ways. Even more fascinating, all of the details in each prophecy perfectly harmonize and they synchronize with other prophecies describing the same event. The four rules force all of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation into a huge matrix that organizes events in an orderly, timely, and predictable manner.
To visualize this matrix, think of the seventeen prophecies in Daniel and Revelation as a wedding cake having seventeen layers. The foundation pieces are the largest pieces and naturally, they are found at the bottom of the cake. Smaller layers are stacked on top of the larger layers. In Daniel and Revelation, the toothpicks that hold the seventeen layers of the cake together represent specific events that hold and align the seventeen layers. The “toothpick events” are important because two or more prophecies often describe the same prophetic event. Because the same event is described in two different ways within two different layers (prophecies), a precise alignment of the prophecies is not only possible, but also essential for understanding the big picture.
If any of what I'm posting here makes sense to you and those who read this post, and would like to learn more about Daniel and Revelation, please consider the following online ministry, and click on the two blue links to view the study material, be it books, free book downloads, or free video studies on Dan. or Rev., and much more. Should you and others, do any fare amount of do-diligence on this site, I think you will soon appreciate the deep insights and the overall understanding of the Bible that Mr. Wilson has and his gift of teaching it to his readers, and viewers.
Like me, I'm sure you will come to realize, surely this man has been in communication with God.


Larry W. Wilson
Larry Wilson, founder of WUAS, became a “born again” Christian in 1972. His interest in the gospel has led him on a 40+ year quest to learn more about what God has revealed to Earth’s final generation. The results of his research have been shared all over the world in books, television & radio broadcasts, media interviews, and seminars that are publicly available on all different types of media (see our Christian Bookstore).
What is Wake Up America Seminars (WUAS)?
Wake Up America Seminars, Inc. is a nonprofit, nondenominational organization with a focus on the study of End-Time Prophecy. WUAS is not a church, nor does it endorse any denomination. Our focus is singular: We are dedicated to proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and His imminent return. We are delighted that people of all faiths are diligently using the Bible study materials produced by WUAS. All study materials are based solely on the Bible alone.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#87
Acts_29. As a student of apocalyptic prophecy (Daniel & Revelation) for over thirty five years, I hold a view different than what my faith community has taught since it's conception. I believe God presents new light from time to time according to His timing, yet all churches once they have been charted fail to update earlier teachings with greater light/ understanding as God makes it know. Therefore, they are left in darkness on certain issues.
Nonetheless I have been trying to share this new light within my church and this is what I've learned. First, for most of us, religious traditions and the opinions of respected leaders are usually more important than truth itself. Traditions are familiar and predictable, whereas truth can be disruptive, humiliating, and socially divisive. Second, it is impossible to be “a defender of tradition” and at the same time, be “a seeker of truth.” These mind sets stand in opposition to each other. Third, if someone challenges the folly of a tradition, he or she will surely suffer for it. Last, if we reject or ignore the truth, failure cannot be avoided. We may arrogantly defend our ignorance, but ignorance will not save us from the outcome that truth demands.
So, should you try to introduce a study on Revelation which differs from the position held by your faith community you will face strong social resistance, and gain a new perspective in just how closed minded and bias people are over their religious views. This response is the same in all religious faiths and in all cultures and nations of the world. However! this is not a problem for God. He knew before we were created that over time Satan would lead fallen humanity into religious bias and closed minds. So God have Daniel five prophecies recorded in the book of Daniel and told him to seal up the book until, "the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4&9). So the question begs to be asked, what has God kept hidden in the book of Daniel, until the, "time of the end"? We know it wasn't the stories
of faith, or the prophecies themselves, so what was it?
The third (and deepest) level of knowledge found within the book of Daniel is the architecture (hermenutics, Laws of interpretation) of apocalyptic prophecy. The prophecies in Daniel conform to a structure or pattern that controls their timing and meaning. This structure also exists in Revelation! In other words, when we understand how the architecture of Daniel functions, we will immediately understand how the architecture in Revelation functions!
Daniel’s architecture produces four self-evident rules. These four rules are like a combination to a safe. When the four rules are properly applied, the door to understanding swings open and the prophecies make perfect sense! This point is extremely important. Portions of Daniel and much of Revelation have been a mystery for centuries. Now that the rules are available, both books make sense just as they read.
When the four rules found in Daniel are applied to Daniel and Revelation, a comprehensive story unfolds that is completely harmonious with everything the Bible reveals about God’s love, character, and ways. Even more fascinating, all of the details in each prophecy perfectly harmonize and they synchronize with other prophecies describing the same event. The four rules force all of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation into a huge matrix that organizes events in an orderly, timely, and predictable manner.
To visualize this matrix, think of the seventeen prophecies in Daniel and Revelation as a wedding cake having seventeen layers. The foundation pieces are the largest pieces and naturally, they are found at the bottom of the cake. Smaller layers are stacked on top of the larger layers. In Daniel and Revelation, the toothpicks that hold the seventeen layers of the cake together represent specific events that hold and align the seventeen layers. The “toothpick events” are important because two or more prophecies often describe the same prophetic event. Because the same event is described in two different ways within two different layers (prophecies), a precise alignment of the prophecies is not only possible, but also essential for understanding the big picture.
If any of what I'm posting here makes sense to you and those who read this post, and would like to learn more about Daniel and Revelation, please consider the following online ministry, and click on the two blue links to view the study material, be it books, free book downloads, or free video studies on Dan. or Rev., and much more. Should you and others, do any fare amount of do-diligence on this site, I think you will soon appreciate the deep insights and the overall understanding of the Bible that Mr. Wilson has and his gift of teaching it to his readers, and viewers.
Like me, I'm sure you will come to realize, surely this man has been in communication with God.


Larry W. Wilson
Larry Wilson, founder of WUAS, became a “born again” Christian in 1972. His interest in the gospel has led him on a 40+ year quest to learn more about what God has revealed to Earth’s final generation. The results of his research have been shared all over the world in books, television & radio broadcasts, media interviews, and seminars that are publicly available on all different types of media (see our Christian Bookstore).
What is Wake Up America Seminars (WUAS)?
Wake Up America Seminars, Inc. is a nonprofit, nondenominational organization with a focus on the study of End-Time Prophecy. WUAS is not a church, nor does it endorse any denomination. Our focus is singular: We are dedicated to proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and His imminent return. We are delighted that people of all faiths are diligently using the Bible study materials produced by WUAS. All study materials are based solely on the Bible alone.
I'm just basic Amillennial and see the Kingdom present now.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#88
I'm just basic Amillennial and see the Kingdom present now.

I would be from the same Amil no literal 1000 yrs. .What is meant by the kingdom present now.? I have not heard that was part of the Amil?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#89
I would be from the same Amil no literal 1000 yrs. .What is meant by the kingdom present now.? I have not heard that was part of the Amil?
The Kingdom arrived with Jesus but only the born again can see it. It is spiritual. I view the effects of the kingdom through scripture. When I see something taking place, scripture shows me the Kingdom's role in it.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#90
The Kingdom arrived with Jesus but only the born again can see it. It is spiritual. I view the effects of the kingdom through scripture. When I see something taking place, scripture shows me the Kingdom's role in it.

I would view through the scripture also . But the idea that it arrived with Jesus .What's meant by that? Where was the kingdom with Abel the first apostle? The apostle Jesus came later.

The kingdom does not come by observation if that what you meant.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#91
I would view through the scripture also . But the idea that it arrived with Jesus .What's meant by that? Where was the kingdom with Abel the first apostle? The apostle Jesus came later.

The kingdom does not come by observation if that what you meant.
The kingdom the prophets spoke of.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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#93
I'm just basic Amillennial and see the Kingdom present now.
Keep on deluding yourself. The very fact that you reject a literal Millennium when it is clearly spelled out in the the Bible is delusional.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#94
Keep on deluding yourself. The very fact that you reject a literal Millennium when it is clearly spelled out in the the Bible is delusional.
Did the kingdom arrive when Daniel and Jesus said it did? Or do you look for another Jesus and a future physical kingdom of the Pharisees instead?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#95
The one not seen?
They spoke of literal physical symbols of the spiritual. Just like Revelation. The Pharisees were blinded to it. Why agree with them?
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
89
28
#96
I'm in the middle of preparing my Revelation study. I have time--my group is in the middle of another series. I get the next series. In the meantime, it seems people's interest in Revelation is waning somewhat. When the Covid crisis first hit and the grocery store shelves were all empty, it was immediate doom-and-gloom, famine, and the apocalypse. Now, that is all fading.

Meanwhile, as I dove into my preparation, I felt teaching hermeneutics (in order to study how best to interpret Revelation) was in fact the more important topic. Revelation was more the hook to get people interested. Looks like I'm going to have to adapt to that. I have a feeling that I can instead dive directly into hermeneutics, and by the time we apply it to Revelation, some other apocalyptic crisis will surface and everybody will be interested again.

For the first couple lessons, here was my plan:

- Why study Revelation?
1. Because it is God's Word, and that means we should study it.
Revelation 22:19 says if you take away the words of this book, then God will take away the blessings. And by not studying it, you are effectively taking away the book. Thus we should study it.
2. Because it is of particular interest to many of us now, amid the Covid crisis.
3. Because Revelation is about more than just predicting the End Times. There is theology in there, and calls for endurance.
4. Because Jesus told us always to be ready.
This is a discussion question as well--so I will be inviting people to add their own, or modify my reasons.

- Why do we tend to shy away from Revelation?
1. We don't understand it.
2. It can get divisive.
3. So much conflicting information out there. I just throw up my hands and give up.
4. It's terrifying.
5. The End Times don't apply to us, and/or "I'm not too worried about it--God will take care of us no matter what happens."
This, too, is a discussion question.


- Lay out the study plan for the series.
1. Make clear that this study is intended to be "non-partisan". This is not meant to advance any particular school of thought. It is meant to empower you to seek out the truth, in the midst of all the noise.
2. Lay out a ground rule that you have to listen to other points of view--even what you believe to be "wrong" ones. This is a study--not a debate. I'm not saying this is the one right way to do it, but it is just the way I'm doing this one.
3. First few weeks will be laying some groundwork first, and we won't even get getting into Revelation yet. (in other words we will be covering hermeneutics, and applying it to other books). (funny thing is, I'm beginning to believe this shouldn't even be the prelude to Revelation. This should be the main attraction)
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
89
28
#97
Subsequent to this, my brief plan on going over hermeneutics:

1. What are hermeneutics, exegesis, and eigesis?
2. Why are we even going over these big words that are not even in the Bible?
3. How is it that everybody reads the same Bible, yet everybody reads different things from it? We even have about 120 different English Bible translations out there.
4. Go over the relationship between the Greek, the Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, and English, as it pertains to finding the truth within the Bible.
5. Go over some of the challenges Biblical scholars encounter when translating the Greek Bible to English, such as literal translation versus functional equivalency.
a. Go over why it matters. e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses and John 1:1 "and the Word was 'a' god..." -- in the heretical New World Translation.

6. Explain how different hermeneutics are applied to different books. There are Gospels, vs. Epistles, vs. Letters, vs. Apocryphal.
7. Introduce the concept of Sensus plenior. Christians usually apply this to the Bible as a whole. i.e. the Letters were considered "occasional documents", i.e. they had a specific recipient, and pertained to a particular theological problem at a particular occasion. But the letters were all compiled into a canon, which produces a broader Sensus plenior, which the individual authors were not aware of at the time.
a. Relate this to Revelation, and highlight how this means we should relate Revelation to other books in the Bible. Some of those relationships, John may not have even been aware of (or at least, if you buy into Sensus plenior...).
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#98
Subsequent to this, my brief plan on going over hermeneutics:
It would seem that you are going too far afield.

Always follow the K.I.S.S. principle. Take Revelation in its plain literal sense, with the understanding that it is generally chronological from the first coming of Christ to the New Heavens and the New Earth. However, unless you have a good grasp of the Bible as such, you would be better off to back off altogether, and present another study.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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Begin with the 7 Churches of Asia Minor and relate them to your current Church body.

It's amazing how Christ begins each Church with a complement and then ends with, but I have this Against You!

You might discover what your current Church has in common with these 7 Churches both good/bad.

That can lead to improving/restoration/what needs to be fixed/where you are are solid at.


Personally, I think if every Church did this and was honest to themselves, we might get that last big Revival we are hoping for!