The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[John146]

In a way it's not really true that the new covenant is new because Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him as righteousness. He was saved just like we are today, by faith in Christ. Christ was IN THE CHURCH in the wilderness.

The new covenant principles were around back in their day but it wasn't published in covenant form, it was actually hidden. Any ungodly Jew back then could have been saved just like Abraham was saved but the word of God never took root in their lives. The offer is still good for them even today though. All they have to do is believe God and they will be counted as righteous.

How did the Jew under the law have their sins forgiven? Ever read Leviticus?

 

[Dan_473]

We are talking universally Italy, Greece, Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, maybe parts of Africa. It's nothing like what we would think in terms of universally today, the entire world's nations etc.

In fact, For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity.

Even though Christianity was banned for the first 300 years, after the Ascension of Christ, doesn't mean what Paul and Peter established did not remain teaching wise. Otherwise, Christians in that area would not have been persecuted if there were no Christians and no one teaching about Christ.




Today, a Bishop would be known as preachers/evangelists. In essence, when we witness to someone, we are acting in the role of Bishop/preacher/evangelist. The sinner is being taught about Christ from us the same as going to Church and being taught by a preacher/evangelist.

yes, I hear what you're saying and you may well have the right of it.

I agree that for irenaeus, "universally" meant the area he was familiar with.

the church was founded at Rome? do you agree with that?
most people say the church was founded at Pentecost in the upper room.

the church is organized at Rome.
again, agree?
if so, still true today?
if true back then but not today when did it stop, in your view?

was irenaeus thinking of Bishops who were appointed? if so, when did that process stop?

one of the things I'm interested in is whether these changes were made at a particular point in time, or a kind of gradual shift as God led the church from one phase to another.

 

[Dan_473]

Fellow posters on this thread,

We are moving in a few days and it is taking a lot out of me. I do not have the time nor energy to continue on this thread and I apologize for that. I can do a little posting on threads not so time intensive but this one takes more out of me than I can give it.

I totally hear what you're saying!

May things go well with you, my sister in Christ!

 

[Dan_473]

Christ was IN THE CHURCH in the wilderness.

I can see that,
1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

 

[John146]

I can see that,
1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

They had no understanding though. Moses was condemned for striking the rock a second time. Once Christ was crucified for us, we are to call upon that rock, not put Him back on the cross over and over.

 

[KJV1611]

What do you do with the following, Truth7t7?

========================================

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. (This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire

When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

========================================

In the context above, there are six references to a thousand years:

1). Satan bound in the Abyss for a thousand years

2). Satan sealed in the Abyss so that he is not able to deceive the nations during that thousand years

3). The great tribulation saints are resurrected and reign with Christ for a thousand years

4). The rest of the dead (unrighteous) don't resurrect until the thousand years are completed

5). The second death has no power over those who take part in the first resurrection and reign with Christ a thousand years

6). When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from the Abyss and will once again deceive mankind

=======================================

According to the context above, it is overly apparent that there is going to be a thousand year period which will ensue following Christ's return to the earth to end the age. To deny that there will be a thousand year period, would be to blatantly ignore God's word. The only way that you can get rid of a literal thousand year period, is if you symbolize or allegorize the reference to a thousand years.

And because you are denying it, I'm guessing that you are among the group who rationalizes the reference to a thousand years, by comparing it to Psalm 50:10 and applying the symbolic meaning of "God owning cattle on a thousand hills" to the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7.

In any case, the fact remains that the words "a thousand years" is mentioned six times. And the only way that you can get rid of the plain literal meaning of the scripture, is by falsely interpreting it in the symbolic sense.

And for those who would cite Satan being bound when Christ was crucified, that does not fit with Satan being cast into the Abyss and restricted in there so that he cannot deceive the nations during that thousand year period. It is not until the end of the thousand years that he is released to perform one last rebellion, after which cast he is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown into a thousand years earlier.

If you read it in its plain literal meaning of the millennial, which is the correct way to ready it, the thousand years are literal.

Ahwatukee here is the plain reading of the millennium.

The number 1000 represents the time when Jesus Christ reigns over his ONE AND ONLY kingdom on this earth. This is the kingdom that is NOT OF THIS WORLD, the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.

Just to reiterate, there is ONLY ONE KINGDOM that Jesus will ever rule over on this planet. There is no kingdom of heaven for the Jews and then another kingdom for the Christians, there is ONLY ONE KINGDOM.

Now let's look at the "Thousand" verses.

(Psa 50:10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
The thousand hills are entities that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.

(Psa 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
The thousand years are DAYS that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The number of days of this kingdom IS NOT 1000 years. 1000 years denotes that these are 24 hour DAYS that fall within the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
The thousand years denotes the 24 hour DAYS that fall within the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE, in which Satan will be bound.

(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
At the end of the thousand years of the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE, Satan will be loosed.

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The thousand years denotes the EXACT TIME when those that lost their lives in Christ WERE RAISED FROM THE DEAD to reign with him in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The kingdom that came when Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The end of the thousand years denotes the EXACT TIME when THE REST of those that will die in Christ will be raised AT THE END OF the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.

The kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE ENDS when the believer is translated from the earthly kingdom that comes without observance into the HEAVENLY KINGDOM that comes WITH OBSERVANCE.

Those two resurrections are the FIRST RESURRECTION.

 

[KJV1611]

How did the Jew under the law have their sins forgiven? Ever read Leviticus?

No Jew UNDER the law had their sins forgiven. The law never has and never will save anybody period. Again, you fail to realize that Christ was in THE CHURCH in the wilderness.... Those Jews that were IN CHRIST were not under the law.

 

[KJV1611]

I can see that,
1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

Exactly! Joel tells us that bride comes out of her closet.... she was hidden in the Old Testament, most people didn't and still don't know that Christ was in THE CHURCH in the wilderness. She came out of her closet when the bridegroom (Christ) left his chamber. And I'm assuming that he chamber means the tomb. In other words, the bride came out of her closet and was made publicly visible when Christ, the bridegroom, rose from the dead.

(Joe 2:16) Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No Jew UNDER the law had their sins forgiven.

That is incorrect. Why not study the OT and discover this for yourself?

 

[KJV1611]

That is incorrect. Why not study the OT and discover this for yourself?

(Heb 10:3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
(Heb 10:4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

When a person gets saved their sins are taken away. Surely you know this?

 

[KJV1611]

That is incorrect. Why not study the OT and discover this for yourself?

Do you believe that Christ was in the church in the wilderness? In other words do you believe the church existed before Pentecost?

 

[John146]

No Jew UNDER the law had their sins forgiven. The law never has and never will save anybody period. Again, you fail to realize that Christ was in THE CHURCH in the wilderness.... Those Jews that were IN CHRIST were not under the law.

The sacrificial system was put in place so the people's sins could be forgiven. If a Jew died in his sin, they were cut off from God for eternity. I can post many, many more if needed. Sins could be forgiven under the law, but not washed away.

Leviticus 4:20
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:31
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the Lord; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:35
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:13
And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

 

[John146]

Do you believe that Christ was in the church in the wilderness? In other words do you believe the church existed before Pentecost?

The body of Christ, the church, did not exist before the cross. The church in the wilderness was God's church, His chosen people to bring about the Messiah. Don't confuse the two.

 

[KJV1611]

The sacrificial system was put in place so the people's sins could be forgiven. If a Jew died in his sin, they were cut off from God for eternity. I can post many, many more if needed. Sins could be forgiven under the law, but not washed away.

Leviticus 4:20
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:31
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the Lord; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:35
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:13
And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

Forgiven to the point that God overlooked them and didn't strike them down dead on the spot, but those WERE NOT forgiven in the sense that they were "made right" with God.

 

[KJV1611]

The body of Christ, the church, did not exist before the cross. The church in the wilderness was God's church, His chosen people to bring about the Messiah. Don't confuse the two.

146 the body of Christ is made up of LIVING PEOPLE, not people that are already in heaven.

 

[John146]

Forgiven to the point that God overlooked them and didn't strike them down dead on the spot, but those WERE NOT forgiven in the sense that they were "made right" with God.

Their sins were forgiven, but not cleared. Sins were forgiven, but not washed away. If they did not offer sacrifices for their trespasses, they were cut off from God. The best these sacrifices could do is land them up in Abraham's bosom upon death.

Exodus 34
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

[John146]

146 the body of Christ is made up of LIVING PEOPLE, not people that are already in heaven.

The body of Christ is made up of all those who have trusted in the death, burial and resurrection for sins, since the cross up to today.

 

[KJV1611]

Their sins were forgiven, but not cleared. Sins were forgiven, but not washed away. If they did not offer sacrifices for their trespasses, they were cut off from God. The best these sacrifices could do is land them up in Abraham's bosom upon death.

Exodus 34
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

There's only been one gospel from the beginning of time, I'm not going off on a tangent about 5 different gospels.

 

[John146]

Forgiven to the point that God overlooked them and didn't strike them down dead on the spot, but those WERE NOT forgiven in the sense that they were "made right" with God.

They were made right with God, but it was self righteousness and not God's righteousness. That's what the law provided until the cross. Here's an example:

Luke
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How were they righteous before God? By walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.

 

[KJV1611]

The body of Christ is made up of all those who have trusted in the death, burial and resurrection for sins, since the cross up to today.

Abraham trusted in the death burial and resurrection for sins, he was before the cross. He SAW JESUS ON THE CROSS.