"Not by works" - false!

[star]

Uh, Judges did not go anywhere. You strayed out of your thread and found me. That's what happened.

I pray I will not make that mistake again.

 

[Judges1318]

At any point in time I can think of this verse and be assured, because I know that I still believe in Jesus.

That's how I see it in scripture.
As long as you are trusting in Christ you can have the assurance that you do indeed belong to him in salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

Probably best to let Calvinist's state their own beliefs. In regards to the doctrine of assurance they believe according to Westminster Confession:
1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and estate of salvation,a which hope of theirs shall perish:b yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace,c and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.d
a. Deut 29:19; Job 8:13-14; Micah 3:11; John 8:41. • b. Mat 7:22-23. • c. 1 John 2:3; 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 5:13. • d. Rom 5:2, 5.

2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope;a but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,b the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,c the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God:d which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.e
a. Heb 6:11, 19. • b. Heb 6:17-18. • c. 2 Cor 1:12; 2 Pet 1:4-5, 10-11; 1 John 2:3; 3:14. • d. Rom 8:15-16. • e. Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:21-22.

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:a yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.b And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure;c that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,d the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.e
a. Psa 88 throughout; Psa 77:1-12; Isa 50:10; Mark 9:24; 1 John 5:13. • b. 1 Cor 2:12; Eph 3:17-19; Heb 6:11-12; 1 John 4:13. • c. 2 Pet 1:10. • d. Rom 5:1-2, 5; 14:17; 15:13; Eph 1:3-4; Psa 4:6-7; 119:32. • e. Psa 130:4; Rom 6:1-2; 8:1, 12; 2 Cor 7:1; Titus 2:11-12, 14; 1 John 1:6-7; 2:1-2; 3:2-3.

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:a yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived,b and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.c
a. Psa 31:22; 51:8, 12, 14; 77:1-10; 88 throughout; Song 5:2-3, 6; Isa 50:10; Mat 26:69-72; Eph 4:30-31. • b. Job 13:15; Psa 51:8, 12; 73:15; Isa 50:10; Luke 22:32; 1 John 3:9. • c. Psa 22:1; 88 throughout; Isa 54:7-10; Jer 32:40; Micah 7:7-9.

One may not agree with their theology ... but one should give them an accurate representation ... and BONUS POINTS for organization.

Caveat: There is never 100% agreement in this group; but this is a fair representation of the whole. IMO

So, assuming this is somewhat of an official doctrine of Calvinism, we can not conclude that Calvinism interprets Hebrews 3:14 to mean 'you know you are saved by if you persevere to the very end'.

14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

But that is how it is being interpreted in this thread.

 

[Judges1318]

Agreed.
If one was a synergist (free will), one could argue that man can, on occasion, be the determining factor as to whether one goes to heaven or hell.

What kind of soil of the heart you have determines if you will retain the word of God and persevere in it and be saved, or reject the word of God and be lost. God's grace and mercy is what reveals what kind of soil you have and what potential it has to retain the word of God or reject it.

"7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." - Hebrews 6:7-8

.

 

[Judges1318]

well for me i was taught and grew up in non-osas.

What exactly were the beliefs associated with that doctrine of non-osas that you were taught?

 

[JBTN]

That's how I see it in scripture.
As long as you are trusting in Christ you can have the assurance that you do indeed belong to him in salvation.

Glad to agree here.

Here is the verse again:

Hebrews 3:14 ESV

For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Does this also mean that someone who does not hold their original confidence firm to the end never came to share in Christ?

How do you see this?

 

[Judges1318]

Hebrews 3:14 ESV

For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Does this also mean that someone who does not hold their original confidence firm to the end never came to share in Christ?

How do you see this?

No, I don't see a person not holding to their original confidence to the very end as meaning they never came to partake in Christ. The Galatians, for example, did not continue in their original confidence in Christ but fell away into law keeping for justification, though the letter makes it very clear that they were very much saved and partaking of Christ by the Spirit prior to their fall.

Whether or not the Galatians responded to God's plea through Paul for them to come back to Christ is unknown. But what is known, they did in fact fall away from their original confidence. So, no, Hebrews 3:14 doesn't mean those who lose their confidence in Christ (that is, stop trusting in Christ) never came to share in Christ in the first place.

 

[Guojing]

Glad to agree here.

Here is the verse again:

Hebrews 3:14 ESV

For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Does this also mean that someone who does not hold their original confidence firm to the end never came to share in Christ?

How do you see this?

The NLT version is clearer

For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ."

During the Tribulation, you need to hold firm to the end of the 7 years.

If you give in to temptation and take the mark of the beast after you first believed in Jesus, because you want to participate in the market system, you will not share in what belongs to Christ in the end.

 

[Judges1318]

The NLT version is clearer

For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ."

During the Tribulation, you need to hold firm to the end of the 7 years.

If you give in to temptation and take the mark of the beast after you first believed in Jesus, because you want to participate in the market system, you will not share in what belongs to Christ in the end.

Regardless of the circumstances surrounding his fall, the believer won't retain his participation in Christ that he got when he first believed and presently has if he does not continue to have confidence in Christ. That's the point.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Perseverance of the saints is the teaching that the work of God the Holy Spirit will never cease in the Christian, and all who are truly regenerated will never stop believing and trusting in Christ, and they will never lose their salvation, and they will persevere to the end because God has promised to never leave them or forsake them.

The doctrine of perseverance is based in the doctrines of election and predestination where God elects (chooses) people for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:14) and predestines (brings about by His sovereign will in regards to salvation, Ephesians 1:3-4, 11, Romans 8:29) the redemption of those elect and justifies them (declaring them legally righteous, Romans 4:5, Romans 5:1) by grace alone in Christ alone apart from the works of the Law (Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5). If God is sovereign and He works all things after the council of His will (Ephesians 1:11), then He sovereignly keeps all whom He has redeemed.

“They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved”.

The whole relation between the believer and his God is one of eternal sonship, which cannot be broken; hence all judgments of God upon His own are for correction. “He that believeth on him [in Christ] is not condemned”.

To challenge the eternal security of the believer is to deny that the prayer of the Son of God will be answered and to deny the eternal efficacy of His atoning blood. In ignorance, perhaps, such insult has been heaped upon the blessed Savior; yet still He is faithful. He prays and appears before the Father in behalf of just such ignorant or sinning believers.

Sonship is eternal. It is the result of a birth which secures the impartation of a new divine nature. It is impossible to remove from a child the nature of his human father. It is a deeper and more abiding reality to have partaken of the divine nature. The born-again one thus possesses “eternal life” by a legitimate birth, and can “never perish.” It could not be eternal life that is imparted with no possibility of perishing and then be lost by no greater force than the feeble act of man, that act moreover already having been covered with atoning blood.

A serious theological problem would arise if Spirit baptism could be repeated. A believer would somehow have to be removed from the body of Christ in order to be baptized into it again. And, of course, regeneration or the impartation of spiritual life by the Holy Spirit and His subsequent permanent indwelling would preclude any thought of losing one’s salvation or of forfeiting the Spirit’s residence within the believer.

There are verses about continuing in the faith. Those with “true” faith will not fall away. The purpose of these verses is always to warn those who are thinking of falling away or have fallen away that it is a strong indication that they were never saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).

Colossians 1:23 [And this He will do] provided that you continue to stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakes of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm to the end

1 Peter 1:5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.

To the topic NOT BY WORKS ...
To believe that the source of salvific faith is the individual via 'free will' and not the work of the Spirit is to make faith a work. A work in the dictionary is defined "as a mental or physical process to achieve a goa"l. According to many "free willers", they must continue through their own power of "free will" to believe or lose their salvation. This is a continuation of WORK SALVATION ... the continuing of doing something in order to be save, continuing to believe of their own power. This calls for righteousness (works) on their part which contradicts scripture.
.... The bible states that we are Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. God gives us the gift of faith so none may boost.

Aside: Admittedly, our Arminian brothers do not claim their faith which is dependent on themselves to be a work as they are aware we are not saved by works ... it is a contradiction they deny.

 

[Chester]

Let get to the truth
it says anyone who leaves the church and now is against Christ (antichrist) was never of us (saved)

No remember a prodigal son is not against Christ. He also has not stopped being a son.

I John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are taking the "they" in this verse to refer to "anyone".

John is talking about a specific group of people here: a group that it seems left the church John is here referring to because they were probably never born again.

The verse does not say that this is true of all people anywhere and at any time in history who leave a church.

 

[Chester]

To challenge the eternal security of the believer is to deny that the prayer of the Son of God will be answered and to deny the eternal efficacy of His atoning blood. In ignorance, perhaps, such insult has been heaped upon the blessed Savior; yet still He is faithful. He prays and appears before the Father in behalf of just such ignorant or sinning believers.

I believe in the eternal security of the believer: Scripture is clear that the one who is believing on Jesus Christ is a son of God, and has eternal salvation. But Scripture is just as clear that the one who is not believing on Jesus Christ is not a son of God and does not have eternal salvation. Hence I do not believe in the man-made doctrine of "once saved always saved" or "perseverance of the saints" as you call it.

So if you want rave at me and my "ignorance," and say I heap insult upon the blessed Saviour, and that I deny the worth of the blood, and say Jesus prays for this poor ignorant believer, that is OK with me - you may say and do as you wish: To challenge the eternal security of the believer is to deny that the prayer of the Son of God will be answered and to deny the eternal efficacy of His atoning blood. In ignorance, perhaps, such insult has been heaped upon the blessed Savior; yet still He is faithful. He prays and appears before the Father in behalf of just such ignorant or sinning believers.

Nevertheless I know who I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. My assurance is based on the Word of God and not the creeds of man.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I believe in the eternal security of the believer: Scripture is clear that the one who is believing on Jesus Christ is a son of God, and has eternal salvation. But Scripture is just as clear that the one who is not believing on Jesus Christ is not a son of God and does not have eternal salvation. Hence I do not believe in the man-made doctrine of "once saved always saved" or "perseverance of the saints" as you call it.

So if you want rave at me and my "ignorance," and say I heap insult upon the blessed Saviour, and that I deny the worth of the blood, and say Jesus prays for this poor ignorant believer, that is OK with me - you may say and do as you wish: To challenge the eternal security of the believer is to deny that the prayer of the Son of God will be answered and to deny the eternal efficacy of His atoning blood. In ignorance, perhaps, such insult has been heaped upon the blessed Savior; yet still He is faithful. He prays and appears before the Father in behalf of just such ignorant or sinning believers.

Nevertheless I know who I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. My assurance is based on the Word of God and not the creeds of man.

Hi @Chester ...
Just a thought you may consider...
When you type in tiny letters , it is very hard to read your post for people like myself who have bad eyes and wear glasses , even with my reading glasses on , it is very hard to read...
Maybe you can type a bit bigger and thank you...
...xox...

 

[Judges1318]

I John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are taking the "they" in this verse to refer to "anyone".

John is talking about a specific group of people here: a group that it seems left the church John is here referring to because they were probably never born again.

The verse does not say that this is true of all people anywhere and at any time in history who leave a church.

Which becomes all the more evident when you read vs. 24...

"24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father." - 1 John 2:24

He's counseling believers, who supposedly can not stop believing, that if they retain the gospel they will remain in Christ. Unneeded counsel if it is as Calvin says that vs. 19 means only those who never believed leave.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are taking the "they" in this verse to refer to "anyone".

You are being dishonest in claiming I think it Means anyone! And you could not have read what I posted And come up with this
Conclusion . Because I showed WHO THEY WERE

please try again

 

[Chester]

OK, EG, Maybe I am missing something . . .? I have gone back here to what I think was the original post of mine you responded to:

I John 2:19: KJV: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

OSAS people say this verse means that anyone who "leaves" the faith was never a Christian in the first place. All it really says is exactly what it does really say!

The people John was talking about ("they") left the church because they not ever really part of the church. So it probably does mean that these people were never really true believers.

But the verse does not even come close to saying that anyone who leaves a church in any place in any time was never a believer to begin with.

Then after the post above you responded with:

Let get to the truth
it says anyone who leaves the church and now is against Christ (antichrist) was never of us (saved)

No remember a prodigal son is not against Christ. He also has not stopped being a son.

You say here that "anyone who leaves the church and now is against Christ (antichrist) was never of us (saved)" - and you attribute that to I John 2:19

I John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are taking the "they" in this verse to refer to "anyone".

John is talking about a specific group of people here: a group that it seems left the church John is here referring to because they were probably never born again.

The verse does not say that this is true of all people anywhere and at any time in history who leave a church.

I responded by saying you were taking the "they" of the verse as "anyone". What I meant by anyone is "anyone who leaves the church and is now against Christ" as you said in your previous text. (But is this where the confusion is?)

You are being dishonest in claiming I think it Means anyone! And you could not have read what I posted And come up with this
Conclusion . Because I showed WHO THEY WERE

please try again

Then you said that I was dishonest in claiming you think it means anyone. So I am confused . . . ??

 

[Fastfredy0]

I believe in the eternal security of the believer

I do not believe in the man-made doctrine of "once saved always saved" or "perseverance of the saints"

You believe in "eternal eternal security of the believer" but not "perseverance of the saints". I define them as the same thing. Perhaps we have a difference of understanding.

So if you want rave at me and my "ignorance," and say I heap insult upon the blessed Saviour, and that I deny the worth of the blood, and say Jesus prays for this poor ignorant believer, that is OK with me - you may say and do as you wish

Re: " if you want rave at me and my "ignorance," ... I have done no such thing. I don't even know you so I have no idea of you knowledge/ignorance. I assume you are a brother in Christ so I try to respect you; which does not mean I must agree with you.
Futhermore, and to the point, I never even addressed you. This is a ridiculous accusation.

Re: [you say]"I heap insult upon the blessed Saviour, and that I deny the worth of the blood, and say Jesus prays for this poor ignorant believer, that is OK with me" .... I have not made any such statement. As a brother-in-Christ I ask you to show a quote to verify this allegation. Perhaps our disagreement in doctrine has caused you to get angry. I have no reason to believe you do not love God greatly.
Finally, I never even addressed you. This is a ridiculous accusation.

To challenge the eternal security of the believer is to deny that the prayer of the Son of God will be answered and to deny the eternal efficacy of His atoning blood. In ignorance, perhaps, such insult has been heaped upon the blessed Savior; yet still He is faithful. He prays and appears before the Father in behalf of just such ignorant or sinning believers.

Caveat: I do not know you definition of 'eternal security' or whom you think it is applied to.
Aside: You seem to be overly sensitive. Perhaps this forum of opinion is not the ideal place for you as ideas, opinions and the such upset you so greatly.

Peace

 

[Chester]

You believe in "eternal eternal security of the believer" but not "perseverance of the saints". I define them as the same thing. Perhaps we have a difference of understanding.


Re: " if you want rave at me and my "ignorance," ... I have done no such thing. I don't even know you so I have no idea of you knowledge/ignorance. I assume you are a brother in Christ so I try to respect you; which does not mean I must agree with you.
Futhermore, and to the point, I never even addressed you. This is a ridiculous accusation.

Re: [you say]"I heap insult upon the blessed Saviour, and that I deny the worth of the blood, and say Jesus prays for this poor ignorant believer, that is OK with me" .... I have not made any such statement. As a brother-in-Christ I ask you to show a quote to verify this allegation. Perhaps our disagreement in doctrine has caused you to get angry. I have no reason to believe you do not love God greatly.
Finally, I never even addressed you. This is a ridiculous accusation.



Caveat: I do not know you definition of 'eternal security' or whom you think it is applied to.
Aside: You seem to be overly sensitive. Perhaps this forum of opinion is not the ideal place for you as ideas, opinions and the such upset you so greatly.

Peace

You are funny! Very funny! I like your humor and your forthrightness . . .

Anyway
I believe that the person who is believing in Jesus Christ is secure and has eternal life! Period! 100%
I believe that the person who is not believing in Jesus Christ is not secure and does not have eternal life! Period! 100%

I believe a person is saved because they are believing in Christ's atonement (by grace through faith). So I do not believe in any man-made doctrines or doctrinal statements about "eternal security" or "perseverance of saints".

You differentiate between "perseverance of saints" and the OSAS belief that allows a person who has been "saved" to keep sinning. That is OK with me. You can differentiate the two: I do not worry about the distinction because I do not hold to either one.

So above you wrote (#1470) that:
"The whole relation between the believer and his God is one of eternal sonship, which cannot be broken; hence all judgments of God upon His own are for correction. “He that believeth on him [in Christ] is not condemned”.

To challenge the eternal security of the believer is to deny that the prayer of the Son of God will be answered and to deny the eternal efficacy of His atoning blood. In ignorance, perhaps, such insult has been heaped upon the blessed Savior; yet still He is faithful. He prays and appears before the Father in behalf of just such ignorant or sinning believers."


So in Post 1470 you were not responding to any specific post (at least none was given) which means your audience is everyone in general. So I am reading your post and get to the statement "eternal sonship, which cannot be broken" and I disagree with it. And then I get to the next paragraph and you talk about the "eternal security of the believer". I understood you to mean that in the context of the doctrine of "eternal security" (OSAS). So now you are talking to me when you say "to challenge the eternal security of the believer . . . " - you are talking to me because I do challenge the eternal security of the believer as you are talking about it. Hence all you say in the next paragraph is directed at me - you were not just talking into thin air - you are posting on an open forum and saying that the person who "challenges the security of the believer" as you understand it denies the efficacy of the blood, in ignorance heaps insult on the Saviour, etc.

Hey, you may say all that if you really believe that is true of me - and I am OK with that - but don't try to back out and say that is not what you were doing!

If you were not saying that paragraph about me, then please explain who it was meant for - and then the next time address it to that specific person instead of anyone in general who "challenges the eternal security of the believer'

So now I am "angry" and "overly sensitive" and maybe shouldn't be on a forum I can't handle!
Again, you may say so if you wish - Quite interesting, indeed.

 

[Judges1318]

the work of God the Holy Spirit will never cease in the Christian

That's why we are exhorted to remain believers--because of the superior and perfect work of Christ's ministry that is able to save completely and eternally.

"14 ...since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. " - Hebrews 4:14

The perfect and eternal ministry of Christ ends for the person who stops believing. That doesn't mean Christ's ministry isn't perfect and eternal. It means you stopped trusting in that which is perfect and eternal, and so you lose the benefit of that ministry.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: the work of God the Holy Spirit will never cease in the Christian

That's why we are exhorted to remain believers--because of the superior and perfect work of Christ's ministry that is able to save completely and eternally.

Agreed

The perfect and eternal ministry of Christ ends for the person who stops believing.

I assume 'believing' means stops being a Christian.
Respectfully, I believe that God chooses us (not the other way around lest any should boast) and therefore all those He chooses before the foundation of the earth remain Christians forever without exception. Thus there is no situation in which Christ's ministry ends in regards to his chosen sheep of which He loses none.
Caveat1: I am assuming you believe we co-operate with Christ's work and we are responsible for salvific faith throughout out lifetime. If I am incorrect, I apologize.

It means you stopped trusting in that which is perfect and eternal, and so you lose the benefit of that ministry.

Your understanding of how one comes to Christ varies from mine (see caveat1). Thus our corollaries will vary.

That doesn't mean Christ's ministry isn't perfect and eternal.

Well, I feel Christ's ministry is perfect as it is dependent upon His all encompassing plan (decrees)(Eph. 1:11). So, for example, when He died he died for the elect only and thus his death was 100% efficacious. Others, not saying you necessary, believe Jesus died for everyone to which I would say if that be true then Christ died in vain for those that He knew would never believe.

I think we are off topic. The topic being NOT BY WORKS.