Not By Works
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In the whole time I have walked with the Lord, a whopping 40+ years, I have never ever met one person who believed works salvation. Not one. So I cannot really speak to what they think and say as I never met one. I do believe they are out there but I never met one. This includes the woman in the mirror.
Now as to your questions:
1, I need to figure where you are come from, so what type of Church do you attend ?
In independent internation church that speaks English in a German speaking city. So that is no good. The pastor has an AOG background but the church membership statment has an OSAS clause. They do not preach OSAS except in a slight hint by some who ignore the decision not to emphasis either position (one of lay preachers.) So I am afraid that will not help you.
But I will tell you my testimony if that helps you. As a child I saw my sin and repented in tears and GOd forgave me. As a teenager I was filled with the HOly SPirit and both times I felt "clean" afterwards. So I was saved as a child without anyone preaching and yet it fits the born again experience which I learned later. So I was saved with no works and no preaching the gospel. I mean if ever there was a testimony void of works, I have it. I did not even hear the gospel until many years later and compared my experience to that and knew that was what had happened to me even though no man explained it to me at the time.
What else? In my teen years I greatly desired to know God. I pursued Him with all I had and he required me to obey Him in details which I did more or less sometimes better and sometimes failed miserably. The bar went up as I went along and He now requires of me more than He did as a youth, a lot more. But I know his ways quite well. I cannot remember the last time He did something in my life and I did not understand it, including discipline. I knew what He was doing and why because He explained it to me at the time.
You believe a Christian has a sin nature in them, don't you?
2. You believe a Christian has a sin nature in them, don't you? When I decided one day to do a search for "sin nature" in the Bible and found none, I stopped believing in it. What is the fall out? I believe that everytime I sin it is because I wanted what sin offered and I have no excuse like something in my from birth. I believe what James wrote, we have not because we ask not. We ask and do not recieve because we ask with wrong motives. I believe we sin because we are drawn away from right behaviour because of desire that we are not willing to present to HIm and trust HIm to meet or not. I take full responsiblity for my sin and do not blame Adam or my parents or a sin nature. I know that is singular but I think it better to say the sin I do is because of me. My church teaches sin nature, by the way.
3, I prefer to confront this will, who think they quite sinning:
I am not sinless. Will I ever be sinless? I doubt it because He keeps raising the bar on me. What he didn't even convict me of year ago is not a big deal in my behaviour and He is like a hawk on the matter.
My statments: My desire is to know God and make Him known. I love my brethren very much including all of you. If there is anything I could do for you I would do so. My life has not been easy but He has been faithful and my life has been so much better than I ever dreamed of at 16 it is astounding, although in terms of the world we have none to little of the material comforts so many take for granit. But it does not matter as I have come to know Him and I would rather know Him than have the nicest house and car and material security the world offers.
Thanks for asking about my position. It was a privilege to share. Please feel free to ask me anything. Salvation is based on faith alone in the atoning work of Christ. But knowing God depends upon personal obedience to Him. There are no attributed knowing HIm based on faith. Salvation based on simply believing? Yes. Knowing God comes at a cost. Do you believe this?
Much love
Dorothy Mae
Now as to your questions:
1, I need to figure where you are come from, so what type of Church do you attend ?
In independent internation church that speaks English in a German speaking city. So that is no good. The pastor has an AOG background but the church membership statment has an OSAS clause. They do not preach OSAS except in a slight hint by some who ignore the decision not to emphasis either position (one of lay preachers.) So I am afraid that will not help you.
But I will tell you my testimony if that helps you. As a child I saw my sin and repented in tears and GOd forgave me. As a teenager I was filled with the HOly SPirit and both times I felt "clean" afterwards. So I was saved as a child without anyone preaching and yet it fits the born again experience which I learned later. So I was saved with no works and no preaching the gospel. I mean if ever there was a testimony void of works, I have it. I did not even hear the gospel until many years later and compared my experience to that and knew that was what had happened to me even though no man explained it to me at the time.
What else? In my teen years I greatly desired to know God. I pursued Him with all I had and he required me to obey Him in details which I did more or less sometimes better and sometimes failed miserably. The bar went up as I went along and He now requires of me more than He did as a youth, a lot more. But I know his ways quite well. I cannot remember the last time He did something in my life and I did not understand it, including discipline. I knew what He was doing and why because He explained it to me at the time.
You believe a Christian has a sin nature in them, don't you?
2. You believe a Christian has a sin nature in them, don't you? When I decided one day to do a search for "sin nature" in the Bible and found none, I stopped believing in it. What is the fall out? I believe that everytime I sin it is because I wanted what sin offered and I have no excuse like something in my from birth. I believe what James wrote, we have not because we ask not. We ask and do not recieve because we ask with wrong motives. I believe we sin because we are drawn away from right behaviour because of desire that we are not willing to present to HIm and trust HIm to meet or not. I take full responsiblity for my sin and do not blame Adam or my parents or a sin nature. I know that is singular but I think it better to say the sin I do is because of me. My church teaches sin nature, by the way.
3, I prefer to confront this will, who think they quite sinning:
I am not sinless. Will I ever be sinless? I doubt it because He keeps raising the bar on me. What he didn't even convict me of year ago is not a big deal in my behaviour and He is like a hawk on the matter.
My statments: My desire is to know God and make Him known. I love my brethren very much including all of you. If there is anything I could do for you I would do so. My life has not been easy but He has been faithful and my life has been so much better than I ever dreamed of at 16 it is astounding, although in terms of the world we have none to little of the material comforts so many take for granit. But it does not matter as I have come to know Him and I would rather know Him than have the nicest house and car and material security the world offers.
Thanks for asking about my position. It was a privilege to share. Please feel free to ask me anything. Salvation is based on faith alone in the atoning work of Christ. But knowing God depends upon personal obedience to Him. There are no attributed knowing HIm based on faith. Salvation based on simply believing? Yes. Knowing God comes at a cost. Do you believe this?
Much love
Dorothy Mae
I tried to edit it, but the STATEMENT OF FAITH, ant it kept giving me "Please enter a message with no more than 10000 characters."
So Dorothy, I will give you the LINK.
https://www.fba.org/main/statement-of-faith
Be kind enough to answer my question.
What sin do they need to repent off?
You asked @EleventhHour
Do you think a person needs to repent of sin to be saved.
What sin do they need to repent off?
You asked @EleventhHour
Do you think a person needs to repent of sin to be saved.
I don’t have a quarrel with this really. I think the “original manuscripts were infallible” except they were lost pressing a point that is a bit absurd. Since they are lost they were indeed fallible but that’s not worth fighting over. It’s rather silly than important.
Otherwise the statements are good more or less. OSAS is only lightly hinted at so that’s ok. I mean the church we attend is more blatant in its doctrinal
statement that leans towards OSAS so yours is much more mild.
Otherwise the statements are good more or less. OSAS is only lightly hinted at so that’s ok. I mean the church we attend is more blatant in its doctrinal
statement that leans towards OSAS so yours is much more mild.
E
We need to repent (change our minds) about our "self righteousness" "works" "I am good enough syndrome" thinking it will give us access to Heaven... when God states they are as filthy rags.
Contrition for sins is a Catholic spin on the Gospel. and not the meaning of the word repent.
Contrition for sins is a Catholic spin on the Gospel. and not the meaning of the word repent.
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Dear Dorothy, I have also “reeked of dishonesty” for questioning OSAS beliefs. The one thing I realised is once you sit down and exchange notes the doctrines are not that far off. I also belief you can backslide while it was explained to me that one cannot backslide, if you turn away from God you were never really saved to begin with.
To me, I am trying to be obedient to the word of God. It is not supposed to make me legalistic. Jesus followed the Torah to the last letter and He was gentle and kind, maybe He was also a bit legalistic according to the Pharisees. He never kept their laws and it hurt them. He paid on the cross for that. I never red one passage where He was party to a mob that stoned somebody to death like a Paul did, or denied the Father like Peter did. As a Torah keeping Jew He was a good guy and as a result I can look at Him and say that is why I can do my best to be a Bible observant child of God. Will I fail? Of course. I have done before and will again. Grace is enough for me.
God bless my friend
To me, I am trying to be obedient to the word of God. It is not supposed to make me legalistic. Jesus followed the Torah to the last letter and He was gentle and kind, maybe He was also a bit legalistic according to the Pharisees. He never kept their laws and it hurt them. He paid on the cross for that. I never red one passage where He was party to a mob that stoned somebody to death like a Paul did, or denied the Father like Peter did. As a Torah keeping Jew He was a good guy and as a result I can look at Him and say that is why I can do my best to be a Bible observant child of God. Will I fail? Of course. I have done before and will again. Grace is enough for me.
God bless my friend
Please tell ME, where you got the idea that what I highlighted in RED, is EQUAL to Spiritual Fruit ? ? ? Gal.5:22-26
BORN AGAIN IS A PERMANENT CHANGE IN YOU!
It is so frustrating when someone continues to misunderstands you, but I will not give up on you.
When you have the BORN AGAIN experience, and I am not talking about "tongues", or anything like that.
When you ABSOLUTELY KNOW, something in your heart (human spirit), is eternally alive, IT WILL NEVER LET YOU TURN BACK.
The artist that first wrote the song UNDERSTOOD that REALITY.
The HOLY SPIRIT will BIRTH your dead SPIRIT into ETERNAL LIFE. Don't YOU THINK that will HAVE A GODLY IMPACT ON YOU ? ? ?
NO TURNING BACK, NO TURNING BACK.
Your Scenario, only PROVED the man was NEVER BORN AGAIN.
NO TURNING BACK, NO TURNING BACK.
It is NO longer in your POWER, to turn back, if you REALLY HAVE SURRENDERED ALL TO JESUS. HE WANTS ALL OF YOU, not just PART.
Then NIGHT I became BORN AGAIN, was after my THEIR ATTEMPT AT SUICIDE that last week of 1977. The first two time, I had a pistol against my temple, and SHEAR TERROR overwhelmed me that I was about to walk into HADES/HELL, even though I was RAISED IN A CHURCH. The third time I got as TOTALLY DRUNK as I had ever been, without Passing Out. Got on my Motorcycle without a helmet, and headed toward a dirt Country road that I SAW THEM POUR ABOUT 4 inches of VERY LOOSE GRAVEL on that afternoon. I wanted to arrange a FATAL motorcycle accident, and TAUNTED GOD, "You can take me anywhere you want to kill me on this mile." I hit the LOOSE GRAVEL with my throttle wide open, leaning out over handle bars, so I WOULD HIT HEAD FIRST, when I lost control. I never felt the bike even wobble for that HOLE MILE. PLEASE DO NOT TEST GOD LIKE I DID, BECAUSE HE HAD THE RIGHT TO TAKE ME FOR DOING SOMETHING SO STUPID, EVEN IF I WENT TO HELL. I hit the end of the mile and stopped the bike sideways, and starred at the mile, and could not understand what had just happened, it felt like I was riding on Pavement the whole mile.
I went home and started to sober up, about 4:00 AM or 5:00 AM, I still had not figured it out, so I was going to bed and as I walked into the Bedroom Doorway, it HIT ME. I cannot ride a bike like that even SOBER, and I WAS TOTALLY DRUNK. GOD MUST HAVE GRABBED THE BIKE AND SAID, "NO YOU DON'T, I have a purpose for your LIFE." WAVE, AFTER WAVE OF GUILT RUSHED INTO MY LIFE FOR MY WHOLE LIFESTYLE. I mean a TREMENDOUS GUILT totally WASH OVER ME, time and time again, like all my sins with right in front of my face. I began to WEEP AND CRY UNCONTROLLABLY, Begging HIM to FORGIVE ME FOR MY WHOLE LIFE. I was almost 29, was raised in a Church, and KNEW I WAS NEVER SAVED. I cried and kept begging HIM to forgive me, for at least an hour and a half or more. I COULD NOT BELIEVE HE WOULD EVEN WANT ME, because of the LIFESTYLE I had been LIVING. I PRAYED A PRAYER NO ONE EVER TAUGHT ME, "Forgive Me! Forgive Me! If You have a purpose for my life, then You are going to have to come into it, and run my life, because I CAN'T DO IT. I am making a total mess of it." That was the first moment in my life, I knew I genuinely LOVED HIM, and that was a willing total SURRENDER TO HIM, giving HIM complete control FOREVER! BUT I STILL COULD NOT BELIEVE HE WOULD EVEN WANT SUCH A HORRIBLE SINNER AS ME, so my CRYING went on.
Then something happened to me, that is hard to explain. If I fell asleep, it COULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST VIVID DREAM I EVER HAD, and if I was still awake, it had to BE A VISION. I found myself on my knees, STILL CRYING, begging HIM to FORGIVE ME, AT THE FOOT OF HIS CROSS, WITH MY Arms raised to HIM ON THAT CROSS. It was like every sin of mine was another one pound weight hanging on the HIS ARMS pulling down. AND THERE WERE SO MANY OF THOSE SINS PULLING HIM DOWN. At that moment I saw something strange, the NAILS WERE NOT IN HIS HANDS, THEY WERE IN HIS WRISTS. At that time I NEVER KNEW that the JEWS CONSIDER THE WRIST TO BE PART OF THE HANDS. IT WAS NOT UNTIL THE LATE 80's that I learned that. Then I saw both of HIS wrists drip blood, and it fell on both of my upraised arms, and IT FELT WARM, and I knew HE forgave me.
That is where the Dream or Vision ended. My AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM has GROWN EVER SINCE.
NO TURNING BACK, NO TURNING BACK.
1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
Romans 11:29 (HCSB)
29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.
1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.
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Thank you Dorothy, you gave me exactly what I needed. I can call you a Sister in CHRIST, now. I did not know you were from Germany, so I will define my terms from now on. I have found, that Terminology, become a critical item, when every one assumes they know what the other is talking about. For example, the SIN NATURE, that I mentioned, is not the same meaning to the word you use.
Here in the USA, it only means, we inherited the "Propensity to SIN", for the WHOLE HUMAN RACE. NO shifting blame on Adam, it is our PERSON SIN, and we accept full blame. We know that Term is not in the BIBLE, but there are NUMEROUS OTHER TERMS that we chose to name just like Adam was commanded by GOD to name that animals.
Do you know how I KNOW you are BORN AGAIN ? ? ?
Above is a paragraph that I highlighted a statement in Purple and Mint Green.
THOSE KIND OF DESIRES ARE NEVER FOUND IN A COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIAN.
Here is another suggestion: I usually like to pick up a large sandwich just before I leave the Grocery Store. That is so if I see a transient holding a sign HUNGRY! That way I will have something to give to him or her, not money, so then cannot spend it on cigarettes or booze
Have a good day, Sister.
Now I have made myself hungry for one of these.
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So you have never repented of any of the wrong you did to people? Just were sorry for self-rightesouness? You never asked God or man for forgiveness? This explains some things.
Jesus said unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. I do not know a single person in the Bible who "repented" of self-righteousness. Actually, feeling sorry/guilty for the wrong you did to others is a human quality.
Jesus said unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. I do not know a single person in the Bible who "repented" of self-righteousness. Actually, feeling sorry/guilty for the wrong you did to others is a human quality.
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I do not reek of dishonesty and never did that I recall. I actually don't think about my salvation and haven't for decades. I don't think I will fall away for the same reason I don't think I will leave my husband. In both cases it is not because of a law that says I am married or cannot be otherwise.
I seek to love GOd with all my heart and soul and mind and strength. When one has done this for decades and obeyed the living God for decades, one becomes so committed, that leaving is not an option. THis is what I would encourage instead of a "law" that says leaving is not possible. But I do not want to fight about it. I just try to offer a better way. (I do not think no born again person can ever fall away or shipwreck their faith and so on and I see very bad fruit coming from the theology, but that does not make those who believe this not by brothers and sisters.)
I seek to love GOd with all my heart and soul and mind and strength. When one has done this for decades and obeyed the living God for decades, one becomes so committed, that leaving is not an option. THis is what I would encourage instead of a "law" that says leaving is not possible. But I do not want to fight about it. I just try to offer a better way. (I do not think no born again person can ever fall away or shipwreck their faith and so on and I see very bad fruit coming from the theology, but that does not make those who believe this not by brothers and sisters.)
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E