"Not by works" - false!

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I think PHart may be back. I need to go Ralph from smelling the stench.

 

[JBTN]

You have to continue to believe all the way to the end of your life to continue to be the partaker of Christ that you are now.

It actually says you have become a partaker if you hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. Not that you continue to be a partaker.

 

[Fastfredy0]

1) Calvinism (the old osas) says the believer will not stop believing. If they do, it shows they were never really saved to begin with.

2) Freegrace doctrine (the new osas) says you can stop believing and you are still saved no matter what.

3) Meanwhile, the Bible says the believing person is saved all the while they are believing. If you stop believing you lose the justification/salvation that believing secures:

Aside1: I took the liberty of putting NUMBERS beside your 3 scenarios.
Aside2: I would put myself as a #1
Aside3: I am sure people believing in #1 and #2 would preface their belief as you have by stating "the Bible says"

....anyways ... be that as it may ...

I heard this interesting anecdote. There's this Jewish guy and he believes in Judaism initially. Later in life he becomes a devote Christian. Well, he gets old and gets dementia. Maybe you've guessed what happened next ... he reverts but back to his old beliefs (Judaism). The dated $64,000 question: Is he saved?

He is saved if #2 be true. I like to think #1 and #3 would have a legal loop-hole so to speak. I'm opinionated, but I'm not sure on this one. Throw your hat into the ring... what do you think?

 

[Chester]

I agree. The people he is talking about were not of us. That's what it plainly says.
The mistake Calvin's osas makes is insisting this means anybody, anywhere, at anytime who leaves was also not of us.
Vs. 24 makes it obvious that John was not establishing such a doctrine.

Exactly! The interpretation of the verse is very obvious. But people who believe in OSAS already have their agenda and belief system and so they come looking for a verse to fit their belief system! That is eisegesis!

 

[Chester]

Aside1: I took the liberty of putting NUMBERS beside your 3 scenarios.
Aside2: I would put myself as a #1
Aside3: I am sure people believing in #1 and #2 would preface their belief as you have by stating "the Bible says"

....anyways ... be that as it may ...

I heard this interesting anecdote. There's this Jewish guy and he believes in Judaism initially. Later in life he becomes a devote Christian. Well, he gets old and gets dementia. Maybe you've guessed what happened next ... he reverts but back to his old beliefs (Judaism). The dated $64,000 question: Is he saved?

He is saved if #2 be true. I like to think #1 and #3 would have a legal loop-hole so to speak. I'm opinionated, but I'm not sure on this one. Throw your hat into the ring... what do you think?

Ha! Interesting story! First of all only God determines eternal destiny - so man cannot send anyone to heaven or hell!

Having said that, the question is simply this: When he dies is he a believer in Jesus Christ? Throw the dementia in there and it is very difficult to say -- I will let God have the final answer.

You say you believe in #1 - Do you have a Scripture that says a person who is believing will never cease to be believing?

 

[mailmandan]

How does Hebrews 3:14 fit in this discussion?

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become a partaker of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You say you believe in #1 - Do you have a Scripture that says a person who is believing will never cease to be believing?

Both sides of the argument (Perseverance of the Saints) have scripture that imply their position. But I am begging your question.

I am a monergist. I believe in the "Perseverance of the Saints". Having studied the subject I could list scripture to support my contention.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ha! Interesting story! First of all only God determines eternal destiny - so man cannot send anyone to heaven or hell!

Agreed.
If one was a synergist (free will), one could argue that man can, on occasion, be the determining factor as to whether one goes to heaven or hell.

 

[Chester]

Both sides of the argument (Perseverance of the Saints) have scripture that imply their position. But I am begging your question.

I am a monergist. I believe in the "Perseverance of the Saints". Having studied the subject I could list scripture to support my contention.

Well, LOL, in that case, if you identify yourself as a "Monergist," then you have your theology and beliefs all laid out and decided and Scripture probably won't change it. And so of course you could list Scripture to support your view. Anyone can do that for any view.

I am talking about properly interpreting Scripture without having a theology ideology it must fit into.

Sorry, Scripture only says one thing - it does not imply both sides of the argument.

 

[Chester]

Agreed.
If one was a synergist (free will), one could argue that man can, on occasion, be the determining factor as to whether one goes to heaven or hell.

LOL - and if one forgot about being a synergist or a monergist one could just believe what the Bible says about free will and God's sovereignty.

 

[Fastfredy0]

you have your theology and beliefs all laid out and decided and Scripture probably won't change it

My theology comes from scripture, not the other way around. I could say the same of you. This is pointless. You make the observation that I don't agree with you and therefore I am not reading scripture properly. If I am wrong, to the extent I am wrong and to the extent scripture speaks on the subject ... then you are correct. But the pendulum swings both ways. To the extent you are wrong, to that extent you have interpreted scripture incorrectly.
To deny bias is to deny reality.

am talking about properly interpreting Scripture without having a theology ideology it must fit into.

Agreed. We should both do this.

Scripture only says one thing

Not sure what point you are making. Individual verses can have multiple possible meanings and implications. Using the total of scripture is helpful ... and then there is Deut. 29:29
John 11:35 Jesus wept .... what does that mean? Did he cry aloud? Did tears come to his eyes? How long did he cry? Why would He cry knowing Lazarus would some be alive again. God doesn't have mood changes as He does not change, why is God crying now and not always? Lots of implications and unknowns from smallest verse in the Bible. Then there is the issue of Greek to English translation, the variance in peoples understanding of words, the customs of the time.... yahda, yahda, yahda
IMO

it does not imply both sides of the argument.

If there in no implicity, then there would be no argument. Yet argument we have so implicity is implied (or dishonesty). Honest theologians will freely admit they could be wrong on some subjects. I admire such admissions. I only wish I knew where I was incorrect.

 

[Judges1318]

It actually says you have become a partaker if you hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. Not that you continue to be a partaker.

All believers became a partaker of Christ the moment they believed.

'Made' partakers in Hebrews 3:14 is a Perfect tense verb. That means the action (being made a partaker of Christ) was completed in the past and continues up to the present. And that completed action of being made a partaker of Christ will remain completed up to the present as long as you keep believing.

Calvinism says that verse is saying you show that you are a real partaker of Christ by whether or not you keep believing to the very end. But you can't know that until you get to the very end. So that interpretation of the verse is ridiculous, if not simply impractical, besides being the exact opposite of having the assurance that you are really saved. In that doctrine you can't know that you're really saved until you get to the end of your life to see if you believed to the very end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of assurance???

 

[Chester]

My theology comes from scripture, not the other way around. I could say the same of you. This is pointless. You make the observation that I don't agree with you and therefore I am not reading scripture properly. If I am wrong, to the extent I am wrong and to the extent scripture speaks on the subject ... then you are correct. But the pendulum swings both ways. To the extent you are wrong, to that extent you have interpreted scripture incorrectly.
To deny bias is to deny reality.


Agreed. We should both do this.


Not sure what point you are making. Individual verses can have multiple possible meanings and implications. Using the total of scripture is helpful ... and then there is Deut. 29:29
John 11:35 Jesus wept .... what does that mean? Did he cry aloud? Did tears come to his eyes? How long did he cry? Why would He cry knowing Lazarus would some be alive again. God doesn't have mood changes as He does not change, why is God crying now and not always? Lots of implications and unknowns from smallest verse in the Bible. Then there is the issue of Greek to English translation, the variance in peoples understanding of words, the customs of the time.... yahda, yahda, yahda
IMO


If there in no implicity, then there would be no argument. Yet argument we have so implicity is implied (or dishonesty). Honest theologians will freely admit they could be wrong on some subjects. I admire such admissions. I only wish I knew where I was incorrect.

You are allowed your theological camp - not a problem - you are the one who identified yourself as a monergist - that is a theology camp.

My attempt is to interpret Scripture without bias. Could I have bias? Of course, but to say that - "well, everyone has bias" . . . I will not do that because it is an excuse!

 

[Fastfredy0]

You are allowed your theological camp - not a problem - you are the one who identified yourself as a monergist - that is a theology camp.

Agreed

Could I have bias? Of course, but to say that - "well, everyone has bias" . . . I will not do that because it is an excuse!

Agreed

 

[Fastfredy0]

“The greatest obstacle to theological discovery is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge; the conviction that you already have it.”

 

[JBTN]

All believers became a partaker of Christ the moment they believed.

'Made' partakers in Hebrews 3:14 is a Perfect tense verb. That means the action (being made a partaker of Christ) was completed in the past and continues up to the present. And that completed action of being made a partaker of Christ will remain completed up to the present as long as you keep believing.

Calvinism says that verse is saying you show that you are a real partaker of Christ by whether or not you keep believing to the very end. But you can't know that until you get to the very end. So that interpretation of the verse is ridiculous, if not simply impractical, besides being the exact opposite of having the assurance that you are really saved. In that doctrine you can't know that you're really saved until you get to the end of your life to see if you believed to the very end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of assurance???

At any point in time I can think of this verse and be assured, because I know that I still believe in Jesus.

 

[Fastfredy0]

And that's supposed to be the doctrine of assurance???

Probably best to let Calvinist's state their own beliefs. In regards to the doctrine of assurance they believe according to Westminster Confession:
1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and estate of salvation,a which hope of theirs shall perish:b yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace,c and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.d
a. Deut 29:19; Job 8:13-14; Micah 3:11; John 8:41. • b. Mat 7:22-23. • c. 1 John 2:3; 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 5:13. • d. Rom 5:2, 5.

2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope;a but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,b the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,c the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God:d which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.e
a. Heb 6:11, 19. • b. Heb 6:17-18. • c. 2 Cor 1:12; 2 Pet 1:4-5, 10-11; 1 John 2:3; 3:14. • d. Rom 8:15-16. • e. Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:21-22.

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:a yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.b And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure;c that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,d the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.e
a. Psa 88 throughout; Psa 77:1-12; Isa 50:10; Mark 9:24; 1 John 5:13. • b. 1 Cor 2:12; Eph 3:17-19; Heb 6:11-12; 1 John 4:13. • c. 2 Pet 1:10. • d. Rom 5:1-2, 5; 14:17; 15:13; Eph 1:3-4; Psa 4:6-7; 119:32. • e. Psa 130:4; Rom 6:1-2; 8:1, 12; 2 Cor 7:1; Titus 2:11-12, 14; 1 John 1:6-7; 2:1-2; 3:2-3.

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:a yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived,b and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.c
a. Psa 31:22; 51:8, 12, 14; 77:1-10; 88 throughout; Song 5:2-3, 6; Isa 50:10; Mat 26:69-72; Eph 4:30-31. • b. Job 13:15; Psa 51:8, 12; 73:15; Isa 50:10; Luke 22:32; 1 John 3:9. • c. Psa 22:1; 88 throughout; Isa 54:7-10; Jer 32:40; Micah 7:7-9.

One may not agree with their theology ... but one should give them an accurate representation ... and BONUS POINTS for organization.

Caveat: There is never 100% agreement in this group; but this is a fair representation of the whole. IMO

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I John 2:19: KJV: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

OSAS people say this verse means that anyone who "leaves" the faith was never a Christian in the first place. All it really says is exactly what it does really say!

The people John was talking about ("they") left the church because they not ever really part of the church. So it probably does mean that these people were never really true believers.

But the verse does not even come close to saying that anyone who leaves a church in any place in any time was never a believer to begin with.

Let get to the truth
it says anyone who leaves the church and now is against Christ (antichrist) was never of us (saved)

No remember a prodigal son is not against Christ. He also has not stopped being a son.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think PHart may be back. I need to go Ralph from smelling the stench.

Hmm you may have something there

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly! The interpretation of the verse is very obvious. But people who believe in OSAS already have their agenda and belief system and so they come looking for a verse to fit their belief system! That is eisegesis!

Yet you have done nothing to prove your point. Basically you have given us your agenda. Could it be to try to support your system