Not By Works

VCO · Jun 3, 2020

Dorothy, you have the WRONG idea about OSAS THEOLOGY. SALVATION HAPPENED LONG BEFORE WE WERE EVEN BORN.

SALVATION has NEVER BEEN something like the Crowns we can win, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FREE GIFT, Not a REWARD.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NCV)
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace through believing. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God.
9 It was not the result of your own efforts, so you cannot brag about it.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, {Eph. 1:13-14, and 4:30}
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 11:29 (HCSB)
29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

So all of SALVATION happens the MOMENT we have the SAVING FAITH that the HOLY SPIRIT PUT IN US, or even BEFORE.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

But what HAPPENS AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED ? ? ? When HE birthed our HUMAN SPIRIT into Eternal Life, and WHEN HE immerses (Baptized) our Human Spirit into the Spiritual Body of Christ, Rom. 6:3; it changes us. It CHANGES US permanently, and We have two minds, the mind of the Flesh that lies between our EARS, and the Mind of the Human Spirit, that Lies in our HEART. The Mind of the Human Spirit will want to do what Pleases the LORD out of AGAPE LOVE. As we study the WORD, that is spiritual food for our HUMAN SPIRIT, and it will MATURE, as you regularly feed on the WORD OF GOD. It will eventually become DOMINANT over the Mind of the FLesh. Even from the Beginning you will notice their is a part of you that will always want to do what PLEASES the LORD, and you will notice the Mind of the Flesh wars against the Mind of the HUMAN SPIRIT. But the mind of the human spirit, will win out more and more, as our human spirit MATURES. What happens when we fail, and sin? That is what 1 John 1:9 was written for, and wanting to confess sin to GOD, is a new part of out human spirit's nature. OBEDIENCE is a by-Product of AGAPE LOVE, that SAME LOVE THAT the HOLY SPIRIT poured into our HEARTS. NEVER HAS OBEDIENCE BEEN A PART OF SALVATION. OBEDIENCE has always been an ACT that is spawned by our AGAPE LOVE.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

That is the kind of LOVE that WILL motivate US, to do what PLEASES THE LORD, as an UNDYING LIFESTYLE OF LOVE.

Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 3, 2020

dcontroversal said:

As James said if we stumble in just one area we are guilty
Which marks ever man woman and child living guilty
yet they want to puff themselves up because they do not commit those sins

DorothyMae · Jun 3, 2020

VCO said:

Dorothy, you have the WRONG idea about OSAS THEOLOGY. SALVATION HAPPENED LONG BEFORE WE WERE EVEN BORN.

SALVATION has NEVER BEEN something like the Crowns we can win, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FREE GIFT, Not a REWARD.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NCV)
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace through believing. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God.
9 It was not the result of your own efforts, so you cannot brag about it.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, {Eph. 1:13-14, and 4:30}
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 11:29 (HCSB)
29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

So all of SALVATION happens the MOMENT we have the SAVING FAITH that the HOLY SPIRIT PUT IN US, or even BEFORE.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

But what HAPPENS AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED ? ? ? When HE birthed our HUMAN SPIRIT into Eternal Life, and WHEN HE immerses (Baptized) our Human Spirit into the Spiritual Body of Christ, Rom. 6:3; it changes us. It CHANGES US permanently, and We have two minds, the mind of the Flesh that lies between our EARS, and the Mind of the Human Spirit, that Lies in our HEART. The Mind of the Human Spirit will want to do what Pleases the LORD out of AGAPE LOVE. As we study the WORD, that is spiritual food for our HUMAN SPIRIT, and it will MATURE, as you regularly feed on the WORD OF GOD. It will eventually become DOMINANT over the Mind of the FLesh. Even from the Beginning you will notice their is a part of you that will always want to do what PLEASES the LORD, and you will notice the Mind of the Flesh wars against the Mind of the HUMAN SPIRIT. But the mind of the human spirit, will win out more and more, as our human spirit MATURES. What happens when we fail, and sin? That is what 1 John 1:9 was written for, and wanting to confess sin to GOD, is a new part of out human spirit's nature. OBEDIENCE is a by-Product of AGAPE LOVE, that SAME LOVE THAT the HOLY SPIRIT poured into our HEARTS. NEVER HAS OBEDIENCE BEEN A PART OF SALVATION. OBEDIENCE has always been an ACT that is spawned by our AGAPE LOVE.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

That is the kind of LOVE that WILL motivate US, to do what PLEASES THE LORD, as an UNDYING LIFESTYLE OF LOVE.

Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ.

VCO, I can go into this later as I’m short for time now and I do
appreciate your kind and gentle response. But the fruit of this theology was clearly demonstrated in a poster’s response. The teaching that discourages doing good to others results in some (not all of course) being as uncharitable as they like. No reason not to be. They’re saved and going to heaven no matter what and that’s all there is for them.

EleventhHour · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

It ain't gonna be your (human) holiness that is for sure....so you might as well drop that notion.

mailmandan · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. This is not about striving to obtain "enough" personal holiness (practically speaking) in order to merit salvation based on our performance.

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

DorothyMae · Jun 3, 2020

Rosemaryx said:

Nothing in between?

DorothyMae · Jun 3, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Tell believers a Bible verse that requires something of them and it’s amazing the unchristlike responses. Doesn’t change the truth of His word. Just means some will never understand God.

EleventhHour · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Do you think you are required to bring your holiness to be saved?

VCO · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Obedience for any other MOTIVE than AGAPE (self sacrificial) LOVE, INCLUDING to improve your CHANCES TO GO TO HEAVEN, is never accepted BY GOD. They are Called Filthy Rags by GOD at the worst, (and you do not want to even know what those rags are soiled with); and at best, they are JUST WOOD, HAY, and STUBBLE that will be Burned up by Christ when HE looks for DEEDS that HE looks for DEEDS that are worthy for REWARDS. NO OTHER MOTIVE IS VALUED BY GOD, period.

Sorry, but that is the way the BIBLE reads to me.

DorothyMae · Jun 3, 2020

mailmandan said:

Dear Mailmandan,
We can debate the words sanctified or holiness but none of this changes God’s position that He will simply will not explain Himself and His ways to those whose personal choices do not reach the level He requires. There is no way around this as far as His side goes. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

One can be saved and go to heaven and have prayers answered and be blessed by God. But without obeying the living God, can no man understand Him.

You can call it the sanctification process if you want. But until holiness is seen in obedient choices in real life, understanding Him will not be given.

Whenever you hear someone say we can’t understand God or we don’t or we have to trust Him blindly you should know that this does not describe those who obey Him to a sufficient degree. Perfection is not required but some obedience is required. These DO understand God. They do not have to trust blindly.

DorothyMae · Jun 3, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Holiness is required to see God. Please stick to the scripture.

DorothyMae · Jun 3, 2020

VCO said:

Jesus told the story of two sons, one had a bad attitude and refused to obey. One was full of agape love but didn’t obey. Jesus said the obedient son with the bad attitude received approval. Just thought I’d throw in Jesus view on attitude and obedience.

EleventhHour · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Yes it is... absolutely.

Who justifies, who redeems, who sanctifies/sets apart, who glorifies.

Do you do these things?

EleventhHour · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

This phrase right here ..... very telling?

Have you been a Christian Chat member before this with a different name?

EleventhHour · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

This is what Jesus stated is required.......

John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent."

Do you understand salvation?

EleventhHour · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Perhaps you should recall your first post on this thread.....

eternally-gratefull · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

Then no one will be saved period

you having me on ignore will not change that fact.

Pulie · Jun 3, 2020

Duskey said:

How so?, kindly break it down for me, also support your view with scripture.

Pulie · Jun 3, 2020

dcontroversal said:

But your not sticking to the same story. You seem to have understood the above words and also added more to it in your previous post, now you are against the same words that you once understood and defended.

VCO · Jun 3, 2020

DorothyMae said:

I want to address that statement that I put in RED in your post.

You did not really read all of my post did you ? ? ?

ONCE WE ARE BORN AGAIN, HE CHANGES our HUMAN SPIRIT to I WANT TO DO THOSE THINGS, so if you NEVER WANT TO DO THOSE THINGS, OR I HAVE TO DO THOSE THINGS, you have deceived yourself into believing you are already BORN AGAIN, in my opinion.

Only BORN AGAIN Christians go to Heaven.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, {Equals BORN AGAIN to OUR BELIEF.}

you will keep My commands. {Does not imply PERFECTION in the Greek, but an ongoing striving to keep.}

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,
{It means it really is a BURDEN, unless YOU ARE REALLY BORN AGAIN, THEN THE LOVE IN US REMOVES THE BURDEN of an ACT of AGAPE LOVE.}

You see, most of us on this site are GENUINE OSAS BELIEVERS, and FRIENDS, and YOUR IMPRESSION of what OSAS means, is purely false.

The attitude you run into is purely Frustration. BECAUSE, we have been here throughout approximately the pasts 3 years, and have been watching the here a little while then move on, the parade on non-OSAS fans, that come in and START ATTACKING our Beliefs, with the same misinformation about what we believe and don't believe in. AND IT IS ALMOST ALL FALSE INFORMATION. Do not worry, I am not upset, as I have a thicker hide than most, because I used to be a Volunteer Chaplain in two of the California supermax prisons. I am 71 years of age, and I HAVE Heard what you want to believe about us, over, and over, but honest it is FALSE INFORMATION. Do me a favor, Ask any question you want, but loose the accusatory statements about what you want to believe OSAS teaches and believe, because almost all of it is a pure Falsehood. I hope you will soon learn what we really TEACH AND BELIEVE, and then when you make a statement about OSAS it will be the absolute truth. I do not might that you don't believe the way I do, but this constant False Statements about our Beliefs, should become the TRUTH eventually, I PRAY.

My wife and I moved to a lot of towns from Nebraska, to California, to Nevada, and now after my wife passed away, I moved back to Nebraska. So I have been in a lot of Evangelical type of CHURCHES. Community Churches, Evangelical Free Churches, Independent Baptist, Southern Baptist, Grace Bretheran Church, Bible Churches, Evangelical Lutheran Church, Bible Fellowship Churches, and ALL OF THEM TAUGHT THE CORE OF OUR BELIEFS, JUST LIKE I DO. Therefore, your understanding of what YOU THINK OSAS Doctrines are, is totally in error.

Thank you, for letting me EXPLAIN some of our beliefs. Ask any question about what we BELIEVE, and I will tell you the truth, so you can discard the FALSE STATEMENTS.

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