Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

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Is the "sock puppet" analogy of Oneness theology a fair representation?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 40.0%

  • No

    Votes: 7 46.7%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • Total voters
    15
UnitedWithChrist said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-KMGuXCs-c
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I just wake up 3 o'clock this early morning Philippines time.
I first partially watch the video the debate between White and Sabin, next time I will watch the video between Bernard and White debate.

This is only I viewed the video, as you can see the flows of the RED as for the meantime I stop there and I will come to commentary regarding their arguments in Philippians 2:7...

When Jesus emptied himself, where is His divine side or where the "God the Son" goes or keep safe?
When Jesus was on earth why He only relies on the Father? Why he is not calling upon the "God the Son"? Why during His crucifixion He did not cried out "My "God the Son" why thou has forsaken me?"

It is understood that Christ's divine side is the Father not "God the Son". It is clear that when Christ emptied himself it is the Father's divine essence was altered to Him, as the situation that He does know his second coming but only the Father.11aaaSABIN.jpg11aaaSABIN.jpg11aaaSABIN.jpg11aaaSABIN.jpg
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
There is a continual effort to split God into two different natures during the Incarnation, rather than acknowledging that there are three distinct Persons within the Triune God.
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While Oneness biblically explains the dual nature of Christ, but sad to think that Trinitarians want to multiply God as the way THRITHEISM thinks that God is a three distinct Deities, and so much this is really the way UnitedWithChrist thinks about God, when in fact there is no Triune God, but HOLY ONE and "I AM".
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
The Father and the Holy Spirit witness to Jesus. Witnessing REQUIRES distinct persons, as I cannot witness to myself, for example.

It is so simple a Christian child can understand this :)

Yet a Oneness Pentecostal cannot.
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Where we can find that verse that both the Father and Holy Spirit witness to Jesus?
((Witnessing REQUIRES distinct persons)) So you are saying to distinct spirits witnessing?
 
just_truth said:
Where we can find that verse that both the Father and Holy Spirit witness to Jesus?
((Witnessing REQUIRES distinct persons)) So you are saying to distinct spirits witnessing?
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Distinct persons witness.

Whether they are spirit or not is irrelevant.

At the baptism of Jesus, the Father witnessed to Jesus with his voice.

At the same event, the Holy Spirit witnessed to Jesus by the dove resting on his head.

By the way, this is another set of verses that the Oneness advocate has issues with explaining, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are present at the same time.

Additionally, according to these verses, the Father bore witness to Jesus, along with John the Baptist. This proves the distinction of Persons between the Father and Son (again), because the same person cannot bear witness to himself, and claim that it is a witness.

John 5:30-47 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”


As I have said, Oneness theology is plainly unbiblical, because interpersonal activity between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is unintelligible if their theology is true. The Trinity doctrine is the only one that makes sense of Scripture.

Of course, heretics of all types will continue to plague the church with their denial of this. And, uneducated people will continue to perpetuate their falsehoods.
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
Whether they are spirit or not is irrelevant.

At the baptism of Jesus, the Father witnessed to Jesus with his voice.

At the same event, the Holy Spirit witnessed to Jesus by the dove resting on his head.

By the way, this is another set of verses that the Oneness advocate has issues with explaining, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are present at the same time.

Additionally, according to these verses, the Father bore witness to Jesus, along with John the Baptist. This proves the distinction of Persons between the Father and Son (again), because the same person cannot bear witness to himself, and claim that it is a witness.
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Anyway at the baptism of Jesus you emphasize the Father and Holy Spirit witness Jesus, but does not explicitly says that both the Father and Holy Spirit witness Jesus.
Let me ask again further, how many distinct spirits of at the baptism of Jesus?
As what I see in Jesus baptism there is only One Spirit in the show coming down from heaven, remember that God is only One Spirit and the Spirit is the real identity of God. For more explanation, see this video...
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
Additionally, according to these verses, the Father bore witness to Jesus, along with John the Baptist. This proves the distinction of Persons between the Father and Son (again), because the same person cannot bear witness to himself, and claim that it is a witness.
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Again and again to say there is a distinction between the humanity of Christ with his divinity(Father) the all-knowing God, that makes two during the Incarnation but not two deities/Spirits.
 
just_truth said:
Again and again to say there is a distinction between the humanity of Christ with his divinity(Father) the all-knowing God, that makes two during the Incarnation but not two deities/Spirits.
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Christianity teaches that there is one God yet three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each are co-essential (sharing the same essence) and co-eternal.

You cannot split God into two different natures, and claim that one nature had a relationship with the other nature. This is incoherent.

And, this gets back to my hand-puppet analogy of Oneness theology. Two different puppets but the same puppeteer.
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
Of course, heretics of all types will continue to plague the church with their denial of this. And, uneducated people will continue to perpetuate their falsehoods.
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"At that moment Jesus said: My Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I am grateful that you hid all this from wise and educated people and showed it to ordinary people." -Matthew 11:25(Contemporary English Version)

"At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned." -Matthew 11:25(Good News Translation)

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." -Matthew 11:25(King James Bible)

ANYWAY, I AM NOT AN UNEDUCATED, I FINISHED A FOUR YEAR DEGREE COURSE AND A PASS A LICENSURE EXAM.
I SEE THE ONENESS OF GOD IS THE MOST LOGICAL IDEA I LEARN.
HOW ABOUT YOU UnitedWithChrist DO YOU PASS ANY LICENSURE EXAM?
 
just_truth said:
Anyway at the baptism of Jesus you emphasize the Father and Holy Spirit witness Jesus, but does not explicitly says that both the Father and Holy Spirit witness Jesus.
Let me ask again further, how many distinct spirits of at the baptism of Jesus?
As what I see in Jesus baptism there is only One Spirit in the show coming down from heaven, remember that God is only One Spirit and the Spirit is the real identity of God. For more explanation, see this video...
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There were three distinct Persons at the baptism of Jesus.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The three Persons share the same essence, which is spirit. However, the claim that one spirit = one Person is a false claim, in regards to the nature of God. Three Persons share the one Spirit.

Jesus is a glorified man, and he is God. He has a dual nature. Therefore, he has all the attributes of a human, which includes a human spirit, as well as being God at the same time. These two natures are joined in a hypostatic union.
 
just_truth said:
"At that moment Jesus said: My Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I am grateful that you hid all this from wise and educated people and showed it to ordinary people." -Matthew 11:25(Contemporary English Version)

"At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned." -Matthew 11:25(Good News Translation)

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." -Matthew 11:25(King James Bible)

ANYWAY, I AM NOT AN UNEDUCATED, I FINISHED A FOUR YEAR DEGREE COURSE AND A PASS A LICENSURE EXAM.
I SEE THE ONENESS OF GOD IS THE MOST LOGICAL IDEA I LEARN.
HOW ABOUT YOU UnitedWithChrist DO YOU PASS ANY LICENSURE EXAM?
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My academic and professional credentials are none of your business, but I have a bachelor of science degree in business administration focusing in accounting from a respected university. I worked with financial analysis systems for years before having health issues that forced me to quit.

Regarding being unlearned, I am specifically talking about biblical theology. There are individuals with advanced degrees in every cult.

However, I have noted that many Oneness Pentecostals come from the deep South of the USA and are not well educated.

It is true that God revealed Christianity to simple people, but those who passed on biblical doctrine sat at his feet for 3 years. Additionally, Luke was a physician, and Paul was well trained in both Jewish theology and Greek knowledge. You would really have a hard time proving that Oneness Pentecostals are academically inclined. But most of them believe the Bible is the word of God, so that's a great starting point.

And, to be honest, the cult I used to belong to has unfortunately made the Philippines one of it's main recruiting fields. And, there are tons of cults in the Philippines. For instance, Iglesia Ni Cristo and the cult where the guy claims to be Jesus and has some kind of garden-mansion where Filipinos serve him like he is Jesus. There are a LOT of cults in the Philippines.

I believe that cults like Oneness Pentecostals focus on groups like the Philippines because they are easier to deceive. Many of them don't have internet access to check out the claims that are made.
 
just_truth said:
Where we can find that verse that both the Father and Holy Spirit witness to Jesus?
((Witnessing REQUIRES distinct persons)) So you are saying to distinct spirits witnessing?
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Your questions don't even make sense to me on this topic.

How in the world can you claim the Holy Spirit doesn't witness to Jesus? It is the Holy Spirit who applies salvation to the believer. He is the one who gives the believer the gift of faith. He regenerates the person, causing him to believe.

And, the fact that the Holy Spirit landed on Jesus and rested was part of his witnessing function.

John 1:33, ESV: "I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’"

Therefore, the fact that the Holy Spirit rested on Jesus was an attestation or witness of his identity as the Messiah.
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
There were three distinct Persons at the baptism of Jesus.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The three Persons share the same essence, which is spirit. However, the claim that one spirit = one Person is a false claim, in regards to the nature of God. Three Persons share the one Spirit.
.
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God(Spirit) manifested in the flesh... as in Christ all the fullness of God in a human body.
 
just_truth said:
God(Spirit) manifested in the flesh... as in Christ all the fullness of God in a human body.
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Of course he is. That is because there is only one God yet three Persons, each co-essential and co-eternal. In one sense, you could say that the fullness of God dwells in me, because the Holy Spirit is in me. He mediates the presence of both the Father and the Son actually. You can't break out God into pieces. The born-again believer is brought into the fellowship of God through the Holy Spirit which mediates the presence of God the Father and the Son.

If you are claiming there is no distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, this is a false teaching. If you are claiming Jesus did not exist as a a distinct Person from the Father prior to the Incarnation, during the Incarnation, and after the Incarnation, this is a false teaching. Same with the Holy Spirit. Claiming that the flesh of Jesus prayed to the Father of Jesus, both of whom were the same person, is an incoherent, false teaching.
 
just_truth said:
"At that moment Jesus said: My Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I am grateful that you hid all this from wise and educated people and showed it to ordinary people." -Matthew 11:25(Contemporary English Version)

"At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned." -Matthew 11:25(Good News Translation)

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." -Matthew 11:25(King James Bible)

ANYWAY, I AM NOT AN UNEDUCATED, I FINISHED A FOUR YEAR DEGREE COURSE AND A PASS A LICENSURE EXAM.
I SEE THE ONENESS OF GOD IS THE MOST LOGICAL IDEA I LEARN.
HOW ABOUT YOU UnitedWithChrist DO YOU PASS ANY LICENSURE EXAM?
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By the way, cults have their own pridefulness concerning knowledge, and prideful people fall prey to them.

In this way, intelligent, vain people are deceived by cults like anti-Trinitarian groups. It appeals to their vanity. They love being part of the "elect" who know "the truth", and I am guessing that Oneness Pentecostals are no different.

They love to think they know more than "Trinitarians" and that "Trinitarians" are ignorant. I know because I was an anti-Trinitarian as a vain, young Armstrongite.

So, intelligence doesn't necessarily cause one to be less susceptible to false teaching. Maybe I shouldn't bring it up. However, I still think that cults take advantage of Filipinos and areas with less education. And, I know Filipinos involved in ministry and they have told me that Filipinos don't have a good education. So, it is not just me making it up; it is Filipinos telling me this. I talk with Filipinos on a daily basis.
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
Of course he is. That is because there is only one God yet three Persons, each co-essential and co-eternal. In one sense, you could say that the fullness of God dwells in me, because the Holy Spirit is in me. He mediates the presence of both the Father and the Son actually. You can't break out God into pieces. The born-again believer is brought into the fellowship of God through the Holy Spirit which mediates the presence of God the Father and the Son.

If you are claiming there is no distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, this is a false teaching. If you are claiming Jesus did not exist as a a distinct Person from the Father prior to the Incarnation, during the Incarnation, and after the Incarnation, this is a false teaching. Same with the Holy Spirit. Claiming that the flesh of Jesus prayed to the Father of Jesus, both of whom were the same person, is an incoherent, false teaching.
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Three persons it makes three minds, three spirits and three deities, we maintain that God is one person in His divinity as HOLY ONE, the Eternal I AM, now Jesus!
 
just_truth said:
Three persons it makes three minds, three spirits and three deities, we maintain that God is one person in His divinity as HOLY ONE, the Eternal I AM, now Jesus!
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So the Father and Holy Spirit have ceased to exist?

In other words, God has taken the other puppets off his hand, and donned Jesus only?

The Father and the Holy Spirit no longer exist, and the immutable God has changed?

By the way, there are three distinct minds, but they are one in purpose. There are not three spirits; the three Persons share the same essence, which is Spirit. And, we only believe there is one God, therefore your "three deities" remark displays ignorance of the Trinitarian teaching.

We also believe God has lived in loving relationship since eternity, therefore the one God is multi-Personal, as personhood is REQUIRED for relationships. God is love by nature; he didn't become a lover at the moment he created angels or some other being. You can't have an interpersonal relationship with your own self. God was not a solitary being out there with no one to keep him company like Unitarians imagine.
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
So the Father and Holy Spirit have ceased to exist?

In other words, God has taken the other puppets off his hand, and donned Jesus only?

The Father and the Holy Spirit no longer exist, and the immutable God has changed?

By the way, there are three distinct minds, but they are one in purpose. There are not three spirits; the three Persons share the same essence, which is Spirit. And, we only believe there is one God, therefore your "three deities" remark displays ignorance of the Trinitarian teaching.

We also believe God has lived in loving relationship since eternity, therefore the one God is multi-Personal, as personhood is REQUIRED for relationships. God is love by nature; he didn't become a lover at the moment he created angels or some other being. You can't have an interpersonal relationship with your own self. God was not a solitary being out there with no one to keep him company like Unitarians imagine.
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You base the loving relationship as a proof of your Trinity but we also believe that during the Incarnation. How about the loving relationship of the Holy Spirit? Or the triple loving relationship?
 
UnitedWithChrist said:
So the Father and Holy Spirit have ceased to exist?

In other words, God has taken the other puppets off his hand, and donned Jesus only?

The Father and the Holy Spirit no longer exist, and the immutable God has changed?

By the way, there are three distinct minds, but they are one in purpose. There are not three spirits; the three Persons share the same essence, which is Spirit. And, we only believe there is one God, therefore your "three deities" remark displays ignorance of the Trinitarian teaching.

We also believe God has lived in loving relationship since eternity, therefore the one God is multi-Personal, as personhood is REQUIRED for relationships. God is love by nature; he didn't become a lover at the moment he created angels or some other being. You can't have an interpersonal relationship with your own self. God was not a solitary being out there with no one to keep him company like Unitarians imagine.
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The Father and the Spirit did not cease to exist because we did not believe that Jesus is only Son of God but also GOD who is the Spirit. We rather believe the Son is not eternal. In contrast, we more than believe the Father and Spirit continue to exist because Lord Jesus is now the Spirit and Father who hears our prayers(see 2 Corinthians 3:17, John 16:26-27)

You base the loving relationship as a proof of your Trinity but we also believe that during the Incarnation.
How about the loving relationship of the Holy Spirit? Or the triple loving relationship?
 
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