The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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[shortening your post to make sure there's room enough here... not sure how long this will be
][for this post] try to recall what I already said about "the dust of the earth" and their being "scattered" [another word used is "sown" unto the earth]...
Then notice more than just vv.1-2 in Daniel 12 (for I pointed out vv.1-4,10... where vv.3-4[10] tell WHAT THEY GO ON *TO DO* following said event! [this is not "formerly(-physically)-DEAD" people! (V.13 IS, when later speaking of Daniel's death and resurrection, but NOT here in vv.1-4,10!)])
And then, take note of how the following passages use the phrase "of the dust" (and also the H6965 word I pointed out in past posts, related), and then CONSIDER whether these passages are talking about DYING [or, the grave] or SOME OTHER THING instead
:1 Kings 16:2 -
"1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jehu son of Hanani against Baasha, saying: 2 “Even though I lifted you out of the dust and made you ruler over My people Israel, you have walked in the way of Jeroboam and [...]"
Psalm 113:7 -
"He raises [H6965] the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the dump [/ash heap]"
Isaiah 2:10 -
"Go into the rocks and hide in the dust from the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty."
Isaiah 47:1 -
"“Go down and sit in the dust, O Virgin Daughter of Babylon. Sit on the ground without a throne, O Daughter of Chaldea! For you will no longer be called tender or delicate."
Isaiah 52:1-11 - [note vv. like "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" Lk21:12-24 of the 70ad section of His Olivet Discourse (and recall the "trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..." part)]
"1 Awake, awake [H5782], clothe yourself with strength, O Zion! Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, Holy City! For the uncircumcised and unclean will no longer enter you. 2 Shake off your dust! Rise up [H6965] and sit on your throne, O Jerusalem. Remove the chains from your neck, O captive Daughter Zion. 3 For this is what the LORD says: “You were sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed.” 4 For this is what the Lord GOD says: “At first My people went down to Egypt to live, then Assyria oppressed them without cause. 5 And now what have I here? declares the LORD. For My people have been taken without cause; those who rule them taunt, declares the LORD, and My name is blasphemed continually all day long. 6 Therefore My people will know My name; therefore they will know on/in that day that I am He who speaks. Here I am!” 7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!” 8 Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices, together they shout for joy. For every eye will see when the LORD returns to Zion. 9 Break forth in joy, sing together, O ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted His people; He has redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD has bared His holy arm in the sight of all the nations; all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God. 11 Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing; come out from it, purify yourselves, you who carry the vessels of the LORD."
Isaiah 51:17 - [recall vv. like Eph5:14 - "Wake up, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Does this mean "rise up from your cemetery plot, from being '6-feet under'"??]
"Awake, awake [H5782]! Rise up [H6965], O Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD the cup of His fury; you who have drained the goblet to the dregs—the cup that makes men stagger."
[quoting another post again]
I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):
Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away.
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.
For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,
but He will heal us [Israel];
He has wounded us [Israel],
but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.
2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]
on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]
that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.
3 So let us [Israel] know—
let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.
As surely as the sun rises,
He will appear;
He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].
____________
[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]
"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.
"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (EDIT: different thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.
"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]
____________
[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]
I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"
[end quoting]
I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):
Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away.
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.
For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,
but He will heal us [Israel];
He has wounded us [Israel],
but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.
2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]
on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]
that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.
3 So let us [Israel] know—
let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.
As surely as the sun rises,
He will appear;
He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].
____________
[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]
"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.
"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (EDIT: different thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.
"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]
____________
[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]
I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"
[end quoting]
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/popPlayer.cfm?id=3547&rel=missler_chuck/Rev
The millennium is certain. I would listen to the entire Revelation series, and everyone else on this board. You say you want to know? Then do it.
Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?[shortening your post to make sure there's room enough here... not sure how long this will be
[for this post] try to recall what I already said about "the dust of the earth" and their being "scattered" [another word used is "sown" unto the earth]...
Then notice more than just vv.1-2 in Daniel 12 (for I pointed out vv.1-4,10... where vv.3-4[10] tell WHAT THEY GO ON *TO DO* following said event! [this is not "formerly(-physically)-DEAD" people! (V.13 IS, when later speaking of Daniel's death and resurrection, but NOT here in vv.1-4,10!)])
Did you miss verse 6? "How long shall it be to THE END of these WONDERS". He's talking about the visions that he just saw and that includes the resurrection at the time of Jacob's trouble.
Then in verse 7 Daniel is told how long it will take to SCATTER THE POWER of Daniel's people, the Jews. In other words, how long will it be until the kingdom is taken from the oppresive Jews.
Verse 8, Daniel didn't understand the timing.
Verse 9, Daniel is told that the words were sealed until the time of the end... the end of Israel.
Verse 10 At the time of the end of Israel, many would be purified and made white by the blood of the Lamb.... That's when Jesus came and redeemed them.
Verse 11, Daniel is given the timing agin but this time with a different way of explaining the time.
Verse 13, Go your way Daniel for you are GOING TO DIE before this happens. When it happens, you will BE RAISED up from the grave to inherit your inheritance.
I'm gonna make this short and wait for your response.
This post was directed to @cv5 but I would like to see how any dispensationalist can explain how the simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust in Daniel lines up with the 1000 year separated resurrections in Revelation 20:5 from the dispensationalist view. Specifically I would like to see how @Nehemiah6 handles this but all are welcome to give your views.
Verse 13, Go your way Daniel for you are GOING TO DIE before this happens. When it happens, you will BE RAISED up from the grave to inherit your inheritance.
I'm gonna make this short and wait for your response.
Remember when the "MANY bodies of the saints... arose" and "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" [meanwhile Jesus did His "I ascend [active]" thing (that very day, ON FIRSFRUIT), that He told MM to go tell the disciples about], well, if David had been amongst those who "went into the holy city," that day, why would you think Peter's LATER point [after Jesus' Acts 1 (second, and VISIBLE ascension, some "40 days" LATER... so even AFTER THAT)] has him [Peter] saying THIS:
24 But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
25 David says about Him:
‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’
29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses. [see also v.34]
Here, 1) Peter is making the contrast between Jesus and David evident; 2) This would have been an opportune time to say, 'oh yeah, AND we saw DAVID walking around the holy city on FF/that same day,' but INSTEAD he emphasizes "and his [David's] tomb is with us TO THIS DAY"... no need to say that if David was resurrected WITH "MANY BODIES of the saints... arose" and was walking around "in the holy city" when the others DID.
[and you may recall my making the point that I believe the text tells us specifically that THEY "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" to CONTRAST this with what JESUS DID that very day (John 20:17--told to MM; and Himself fulfilling "Firstfruit" per Lev23:10-12 [1Cor15:20], and that He took OTHERS there in a LEGAL / POSITIONAL sense [we are told about all thru the epistles], and not in a PHYSICAL[/literal] sense... instead of who you suggest He took there at that time. IOW, I believe we are told what THEY DID ['went into the holy city, and appeared unto many'], that day, specifically so that we would not confuse it with what HE DID, that day [fulfill FF/Lev23:10-23]--and I only say that b/c the later epistles tell us what they tell us, about that!
])
Which part of Acts says David IS DEAD and IN HIS TOMB to this day.... NOWHERE. This is where you and I vary greatly TDW. I believe every word exactly as written. And from experience with dealing with God through the scripture, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that David wasn't in that tomb. This is a classic concealment method that God uses over and over throughout the bible.Remember when the "MANY bodies of the saints... arose" and "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" [meanwhile Jesus did His "I ascend [active]" thing (that very day, ON FIRSFRUIT), that He told MM to go tell the disciples about], well, if David had been amongst those who "went into the holy city," that day, why would you think Peter's LATER point [after Jesus' Acts 1 (second, and VISIBLE ascension, some "40 days" LATER... so even AFTER THAT)] has him [Peter] saying THIS:
24 But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
25 David says about Him:
‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’
29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses. [see also v.34]
Here, 1) Peter is making the contrast between Jesus and David evident; 2) This would have been an opportune time to say, 'oh yeah, AND we saw DAVID walking around the holy city on FF/that same day,' but INSTEAD he emphasizes "and his [David's] tomb is with us TO THIS DAY"... no need to say that if David was resurrected WITH "MANY BODIES of the saints... arose" and was walking around "in the holy city" when the others DID.
[and you may recall my making the point that I believe the text tells us specifically that THEY "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" to CONTRAST this with what JESUS DID that very day (John 20:17--told to MM; and Himself fulfilling "Firstfruit" per Lev23:10-12 [1Cor15:20], and that He took OTHERS there in a LEGAL / POSITIONAL sense [we are told about all thru the epistles], and not in a PHYSICAL[/literal] sense... instead of who you suggest He took there at that time. IOW, I believe we are told what THEY DID ['went into the holy city, and appeared unto many'], that day, specifically so that we would not confuse it with what HE DID, that day [fulfill FF/Lev23:10-23]--and I only say that b/c the later epistles tell us what they tell us, about that!
So this is proof to you that David was still in his tomb even though Peter never said that. Peters words were chosen carefully by God to do exactly what you have fallen for. If you could have shown me where Peter said that David was still dead and in that tomb, I would believe you but it's not there.
TDW why would the Old Testament saints be raised and then left to die again? Can't you see that Christ redeemed them, there was absolutely no reason for them not to "enter into their lot". In your opinion, where are they now and why were they denied access to heaven?
I'm not a dispensationalist and I'm also not a covenantalist. There is however no doubt whatsoever that the Bible teaches elements of both.
David is not in his tomb? Would you have us believe that all Christians are no longer in their graves either but have already been resurrected to a glorious body? I suggest that you can easily test your theory, and shouldn't do so to remove all doubt.
I assume you're talking about John being alive in the 90s and writing the book of Revelation at that time.
regarding the statement about the successions of the bishops.
do you accept that as well?
How do you interpret the followin...
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Is this not speaking of the body of Christ vs the body of David?
what's your understanding of this passage?
Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 This is my covenant to them, when I will take away their sins." 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
False claim in Left field, the 1,000 year
No such thing as a kingdom for 1,000 years on this earth, where Jesus Christ Is present hanging out with humans.
A Big Fairy Tale!
You can say it but you can't prove it. On the other hand the posters on this thread have proved the millennium beyond all the shadow of a doubt.
Hey John146.
I'm assuming that "ascended into heaven" means to obtain heaven by your own works like Jesus did. If ascending into to heaven means being "taken up to heaven", then what about Enoch and Elijah? We would have to say they ascended also but Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven except himself... the one who came down from heaven.
What is your opinion of ascending into heaven?
1. Daniel was simply giving us an overview. God wanted Israel to know that there would be a resurrection unto life (the resurrection of the just) and a resurrection unto damnation (the resurrection of the unjust) . So Daniel simply summed that up: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [Note "everlasting contempt = damnation]
2. Jesus also simply summed it up by speaking about "the last day" (which is actually a period of time which stretches for over 1,000 years) in connection with the two resurrections. Also "the hour" was used by Christ as a metaphor for this period of time.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day... No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:39,40,44,54)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)
If we were limited to only these passages, we would conclude that the just and the unjust would all be resurrected within one hour and on the same day. But since we have the rest of the Scripture, we see that the "first resurrection" is likened unto a Hebrew harvest with(1) Christ as the first fruits (30 AD), (2) the main harvest of the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture, and (3) finally the Tribulation saints as "the gleanings" after the Second Coming of Christ.
And the last resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) is some time after the Millennium (Rev 20). Since the Resurrection/Rapture must occur before Daniel's 70th week (7 years) we know that the first and last resurrections are separated by more than 1,000 years.