The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Guojing]

Not at all. The Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) began on the day of Pentecost. And Gentiles were saved shortly thereafter as we see in Acts 10 and other Scriptures in Acts. But you were inquiring about when Israel was blinded. Two separate topics.

they are not separated. Many people here quoted romans 11. Romans 11:11 stated clearly that Israel was blinded so that salvation could come to the gentiles

So you cannot hold the view that blindness to Israel only came at acts 28 but the body of Christ began at acts 2

 

[crossnote]

This was probably the point at which God blinded Israel:

ACTS 28: WILFUL BLINDNESS LEADS TO JUDICIAL BLINDNESS
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see withtheir eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Could be, I tend to think around Mt 13. Shortly after He makes His “I will build my Church “. Statement

 

[crossnote]

We were talking about the book of Revelation, not Zech. The book of Revelation is talking about the wrath of God being poured out in my view on Harlot Israel for killing the prophets. And it actually says that they refused to repent even after the plagues. Do you want the reference for that?

No, I already know the typical anti-semitic clap trap verses.
Perhaps one day you’ll understand that Revelation is basically a Jewish book tying itself inextricably in with the Old Testament.

 

[Guojing]

See, @Guojing , this sentence ^ is not indicative of "Covenant Theology" (do you think?)

If they want to take romans 11 literally, it would be indicative

 

[biker]

they are not separated. Many people here quoted romans 11. Romans 11:11 stated clearly that Israel was blinded so that salvation could come to the gentiles

So you cannot hold the view that blindness to Israel only came at acts 28 but the body of Christ began at acts 2

It's a shame when people use a single verse to create a Doctrine over.

From the same Romans 11:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
^
Warning to the Gentiles

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
^
Proves the Jews are still AOK in God's eyes!

 

[Guojing]

It's a shame when people use a single verse to create a Doctrine over.

From the same Romans 11:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
^
Warning to the Gentiles

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
^
Proves the Jews are still AOK in God's eyes!

What is aok?

 

[biker]

What is aok?

In Paul's passage, they are still the Fathers Beloved. So God has not completely cut them off because He loves them in a special beloved way.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If they want to take romans 11 literally, it would be indicative

There are a few things to take into consideration, as I see it.

--what Jesus SAID on the day that the 69 Weeks [total] were concluded (Palm Sunday, just before the Cross later that same week): "41 And as He drew near, having seen the city, He wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes." [does that count as a "hardening/blindness" Rom11:7,25]

--I believe it was at some point during His earthly ministry that "the kingdom of the heavens is at hand" ceased being said (and I fairly agree with crossnote that that was around the Matt13-15 mark; See especially MATTHEW 13:13-16 and note especially "why" [when asked by His disciples, about the others] He was "speak[ing] unto THEM" [the others] in parables v.10,11,13-16)

--that which Ephesians 1:20-23 WHEN (as to the existence of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") seems to indicate a particular time frame, wouldn't you say?

--other things I thought of, but will leave it at that, for now... = )



[Paul was given the task of unfolding the "doctrine" concerning "the Church which is His body" but this doesn't indicate its STARTING point]

 

[biker]

" there are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide."

The Father must literally be jumping for joy to see His Beloved Jews choose Christ as their Messiah!

I think it is a true testimony to the Gentile Believers to see this many Jews choose Christ as Lord and Savior!

 

[Guojing]

There are a few things to take into consideration, as I see it.

--what Jesus SAID on the day that the 69 Weeks [total] were concluded (Palm Sunday, just before the Cross later that same week): "41 And as He drew near, having seen the city, He wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes." [does that count as a "hardening/blindness" Rom11:7,25]

--I believe it was at some point during His earthly ministry that "the kingdom of the heavens is at hand" ceased being said (and I fairly agree with crossnote that that was around the Matt13-15 mark; See especially MATTHEW 13:13-16 and note especially "why" [when asked by His disciples, about the others] He was "speak[ing] unto THEM" [the others] in parables v.10,11,13-16)

--that which Ephesians 1:20-23 WHEN (as to the existence of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") seems to indicate a particular time frame, wouldn't you say?

--other things I thought of, but will leave it at that, for now... = )



[Paul was given the task of unfolding the "doctrine" concerning "the Church which is His body" but this doesn't indicate its STARTING point]

Well peter offered to Israel the physical return of Jesus if they were willing to repent in acts 3:19-20.

So I would disagree that the offer of the kingdom was withdrawn during the 4 gospels

 

[Nehemiah6]

So you cannot hold the view that blindness to Israel only came at acts 28 but the body of Christ began at acts 2

God does nothing irrationally or unreasonably. Please go through the book of Acts and see that even though Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, he invariably went to every Jewish synagogue in every city that he visited and FIRST preached the Gospel to the Jews throughout the Roman empire. And generally the Jews resisted the Gospel message. Thus Acts 28 is the culmination of that resistance and brought on spiritual blindness to the nation of Israel.

According to your theory God was deliberately shutting out the Jews from salvation so that the Gentiles would be saved. And that my friend is PATENTLY ABSURD.

 

[Guojing]

.

According to your theory God was deliberately shutting out the Jews from salvation so that the Gentiles would be saved. And that my friend is PATENTLY ABSURD.

Once the nation is blinded, Individual Jews can still be saved under the gospel of grace of course.

Once Israel is blinded by God, there is no longer any special advantage being a Jew, as paul stated

But since romans 11:28 clearly stated that God and Israel became enemies for our sake, so that we gentiles can be saved independent of Israel, that theory is not absurd. It’s stated in romans 11:28

 

[Nehemiah6]

My understanding is although the chapters about the Gentiles occurs shortly after the one about Pentecost, it actually happened quite a bit later.

It could have been no more than 5 or 6 years after Pentecost (30 AD). That is not quite a bit later. But even before that Philip had preached the Gospel to the Samaritans (semi-Gentiles) very shortly after Pentecost (Acts 8:5) possibly later in the year of 30 AD.

 

[Guojing]

My understanding is although the chapters about the Gentiles occurs shortly after the one about Pentecost, it actually happend quite a bit later.

If you interpret what Jesus said in the parable of the fig tree, Israel had one year after the cross, to bear fruit.

That one year was roughly the time Stephen was stoned to death in acts 7

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Claiming to be prophesying from the Lord and adding "it will surely happen" provides no information where as "soon will happen" provides valuable information.

The "valuable information" you are seeking [and inadvertently INSERTING INTO this verse] is found in other verses but not in THIS verse (1:1).

That is why I keep pointing out (over and over) the OTHER wording in this verse (1:1) that CONNECTS with those OTHER VERSES which *DO* speak of the "when" (which you are seeking and inadvertently INSERTING here).

And those other verses are (what I'd pointed out, repeatedly):

--1:19c "the things SURE [mellei/mello] to take place AFTER THESE [things]" (meaning, AFTER the 1:19b "things WHICH ARE" i.e. the NOW things); and

--4:1 "... and I will SHEW you the things which MUST take place AFTER THESE [things--i.e. after the things he had just written about in 2 whole chpts, chpts 2-3]"


It is not referring to the things written about toward the END of the Book (as you suggested in a different post)... but the things which are shown to him from 4:1 and following! [<--THIS is the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period being spoken of and SHOWN to him]

Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.
Rev 1:1 The revelation of JC which God have him to show to his servants what must soon take place.
The Dispensational version: The revelation of JC which God gave him to show to his servants what must rapidly take place.

Again (for the readers), those are ADVERBS, but the word in 1:1 is a NOUN.

And it is speaking of the time period that 4:1+ is speaking of, which is "AFTER THESE [things]" which were written in chpts 2-3 ("the things WHICH ARE" which is DISTINCT)

 

[cv5]

This was probably the point at which God blinded Israel:

ACTS 28: WILFUL BLINDNESS LEADS TO JUDICIAL BLINDNESS
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see withtheir eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

There is plenty of judicial blindness on this thread as well. But only those indwelt by the Holy Spirit know who they are. False doctrine and heresy is not trivial.....it is justifyable cause for excommunication and is damning. There comes a time to stop playing pattycake with the heretics and tell it like it is. JUST AS PAUL DID in Acts 28!

 

[cv5]

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
(Zec 13:7-9)

There are literally hundreds of passages that declare the ultimate future redemption of national ethnic Israel. And DorothyMae and Truth7t7 can't find even one of them? And when they are provided endlessly they are rejected instantly? Well I'm going to call it out for what it really is: Israel hating judicial blindness. They are denying salvation of the Jews and Gods undying love for Israel.

 

[crossnote]

There are literally hundreds of passages that declare the ultimate future redemption of national ethnic Israel. And DorothyMae and Truth7t7 can't find even one of them? And when they are provided endlessly they are rejected instantly? Well I'm going to call it out for what it really is: Israel hating judicial blindness. They are denying salvation of the Jews and Gods undying love for Israel.

Yes, see #1043 for an additional explanation for what it is.

 

[KJV1611]

When we die and go to heaven, do we lack anything? In other words, when we go to heaven, do we have glorified bodies (bodies like Jesus) or will we be up in heaven waiting until the end of this world so that we can finally get our glorified bodies?

I'm looking for bible verses, not opinions.

 

[crossnote]

When we die and go to heaven, do we lack anything? In other words, when we go to heaven, do we have glorified bodies (bodies like Jesus) or will we be up in heaven waiting until the end of this world so that we can finally get our glorified bodies?

I'm looking for bible verses, not opinions.

Sounds like fodder for another topic.