The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Truth7t7 said:
They dont have the answers in response, because dispensationalism has more holes in it than a wheel of Swiss cheese
Click to expand...

As I was saying https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4268931

For me, I am pleasantly surprised to find that so many people here, who will reject dispensationalism and insist that the gospel is the same throughout the OT and NT, will also insist that there is a pre-tribulation rapture of the body of Christ.
 
TheDivineWatermark said:
I'm just saying that the word "mello" is another WAY of saying the same thing. You could say (the same thing various ways, with the same idea being conveyed),

--"the hour of trial that I'm PROPHESYING WILL [*for SURE*] come upon the whole world to test those dwelling upon the earth"

--"the hour of trial CERTAIN to come upon the whole world to test those dwelling upon the earth"

--"the hour of trial THAT WILL come upon the whole world to try those dwelling upon the earth"

--"the hour of trial PROPHESIED to come upon the whole world to try those dwelling upon the earth"





[just because some versions have it as "IS ABOUT" to come upon the whole world, doesn't mean the word "mello" necessarily carries that meaning, as in, how we say something "IS ABOUT" to happen in the next few moments--(the word means "SURE / CERTAIN [to]"... so read this verse with that in mind, and reading it from that perspective shows us that he's not saying "in the next few moments" or "in the next several years," but instead "IS SURE [(to take place)]" and not saying as you suggest it would, "THIS prophecy [unlike others you've heard and been exposed to] IS SURE to take place [whereas the others (of inferior caliber) 'flopped']." NO. Not THAT idea, see. ;) )]
Click to expand...
Claiming to be prophesying from the Lord and adding "it will surely happen" provides no information where as "soon will happen" provides valuable information.

Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.

Rev 1:1 The revelation of JC which God have him to show to his servants what must soon take place.

The Dispensational version: The revelation of JC which God gave him to show to his servants what must rapidly take place.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy and bless are those who hear and who keep what is written therein, for the time is near.

The D version: Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy and bless are those who hear and who keep what is written therein, for the time is rapid(?).

Rev 4:1 Come up hither and I will show you waht must take place after this. (This was after the letters to the churches that no longer exist today but did at the time of the writing. How do you deal with this time marker?)

Rev 5:10- O Sovereign Lord. holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood...Then they were...told to rest a little longer until the number of their fellow servants should be complete who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (2000 years is not a little time)

Rev 22:7, 12 and 20: Behold I am coming soon... behold I am coming soon, surely I am coming soon (I guess you guys mean when he comes it will happen fast as though that gives some information. What difference does slow or fast make for us?

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches...(that no longer exist)

Those are internal markers as to the time period and for whom the book was intended.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
John mentions 7 churches in Rev 2-3. If you look at Paul's writings, he wrote letters to 7 churches. However, only 1 church (Ephesus) mentioned by John in Rev 2-3 was included in Paul's writings.

Does that mean Paul's writings were not to be read and understood by the churches John mentioned in Rev 2-3?
Click to expand...
What do you mean here? I don't understand your point. John wrote a prophetic words to 7 churches with warnings etc for them from God with the authority of Jesus that if they did not comply not good things would happen. Paul wrote letters to churches with warnings, etc for them but no warning from GOd if they did not comply. I do not see what one man writing letters to churches has to do with another man giving warnings from the Lord.
Or does that mean John's writings were not to be read by churches to which Paul wrote letters?

No, of course not.
Click to expand...
We read the letters written in churches as to us. We do not read the prophesy to various groups (Revelation was only one) and say God is telling us this is us and we had better do as said or else the disaster predicted will happen. An epistle is not the same as a prophetic word.
In our day and time, we are to read what Paul wrote to Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, Thessalonica.

In our day and time, we are to read what John wrote to the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.


By insinuating that the writing could only benefit the specific church mentioned and that no other church can learn and benefit from the instruction except that church is not proper understanding of the purpose of Scripture.
Click to expand...
A prophet warning writing to a particular church cannot be applied to every Christian. An epistle written to the church in general eventually can. WHo reads the words of the book of Revelation and applies those letters to themselves expecting the disaster predicted if they do not comply?
 
crossnote said:
Where did I ever say that? Many Jews have already perished without Jesus.

True, all those Jews remaining at the time of Christ's return will be saved.
Click to expand...
There will be no time for salvation for any human, as Jesus Christ returns as a thief, in the twinkling of an eye.

Your claim is false, in suggesting that all ethnic Jews on earth will be saved at the appearance of Jesus Christ?

A Big Fairy Tale!
 
DorothyMae said:
Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.
Click to expand...
Looking for 'gotcha passages' is not the recommended way to read God's Word.
 
crossnote said:
Where did I ever say that? Many Jews have already perished without Jesus.

True, all those Jews remaining at the time of Christ's return will be saved.
Click to expand...
And none of this bothers you? The theology blightly condemns all the Jews, the majority, who perished unbelieving and only the lucky ones who are there when Jesus comes are saved. The point is that those who believe this usually rest on "all Israel will be saved" kind of promise when most of Israel has already prerished not saved and that will not change.

If one sees "Israel" as all those who believe will be saved, then one has no problem with this and neednt have an idea that Jesus will appear and have more success with the Jews than last time he appeared.
 
Truth7t7 said:
Your claim is false, in suggesting that all ethnic Jews on earth will be saved at the appearance of Jesus Christ.

A Big Fairy Tale!
Click to expand...
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:25-26)

I suppose you are willing to call Scripture a Big Fairy Tale?
Remember, Paul is writing in response to 'what about the Jew?', all the way back from Romans 9 (if you care about context).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7 and cv5
DorothyMae said:
Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.
Rev 1:1 The revelation of JC which God have him to show to his servants what must soon take place.
The Dispensational version: The revelation of JC which God gave him to show to his servants what must rapidly take place.
Click to expand...

Right out of the gate, your two sentences [/choices] are showing ADVERBS.

The word in 1:1 is not an ADVERB ["soon" "quickLY" "immediateLY" "rapidLY" etc]. (Same for 22:6, btw.)

The word instead is a NOUN.

Try again.





["[things which must come to pass] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Now compare the phrase "things which must come to pass" part with the wording found in 1:19c [which is NOT the same as 1:19b or 1:19a, but is DISTINCT from them] AND in 4:1--same thing being communicated in each of these three sections... and that's just for starters...)]
 
DorothyMae said:
And none of this bothers you? The theology blightly condemns all the Jews, the majority, who perished unbelieving and only the lucky ones who are there when Jesus comes are saved. The point is that those who believe this usually rest on "all Israel will be saved" kind of promise when most of Israel has already prerished not saved and that will not change.

If one sees "Israel" as all those who believe will be saved, then one has no problem with this and neednt have an idea that Jesus will appear and have more success with the Jews than last time he appeared.
Click to expand...
I haven't a clue what you are trying to say, besides is your name Truth7t7?
 
crossnote said:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:25-26)

I suppose you are willing to call Scripture a Big Fairy Tale?
Remember, Paul is writing in response to 'what about the Jew?', all the way back from Romans 9 (if you care about context).
Click to expand...
Just who is "all Israel" because the majority of the Jews since Jesus have perished and will never be saved?

It seems pretty absurd to assume that because one generation of Jews, many of whom are atheists, will suddenly become Christians and that one time slot fulfilled that statment of Paul which includes "all"...like every single one of them, most of whom do not live in Israel.
 
TheDivineWatermark said:
Right out of the gate, your two sentences [/choices] are showing ADVERBS.

The word in 1:1 is not an ADVERB ["soon" "quickLY" "immediateLY" "rapidLY" etc]. (Same for 22:6, btw.)

The word instead is a NOUN.

Try again.





["[things which must come to pass] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Now compare the phrase "things which must come to pass" part with the wording found in 1:19c [which is NOT the same as 1:19b or 1:19a, but is DISTINCT from them] AND in 4:1--same thing being communicated in each of these three sections... and that's just for starters...)]
Click to expand...
This does not make sense. I can write that something will happen rapidly (adjective) or say it will happen in quickness (noun) and what meaning has changed?
 
DorothyMae said:
Just who is "all Israel" because the majority of the Jews since Jesus have perished and will never be saved?

It seems pretty absurd to assume that because one generation of Jews, many of whom are atheists, will suddenly become Christians and that one time slot fulfilled that statment of Paul which includes "all"...like every single one of them, most of whom do not live in Israel.
Click to expand...
That is the purpose of the Great Trib, to bring the Jew to repentance.
 
crossnote said:
No, I am going by tour actual actions and 'gotcha' game playing.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess the words that indicate it was communicating an event that was to happen within a few years was too much. This is the problem with your side of the discussion. You guys tend to leave when you cannot answer throwing up sand to hide the departure or repeat the theology.

The book of Revelation has more than one indicator of the events described were about to happen and the recepients were to take the words and take heart because horrible times were coming but they would be short lived for the church in general (although many of them would perish.) It was its purpose and it accomplished that. It is interesting to see that the theology you espouse is unwilling to stand up and defend itself when new material is presented. I bet the "left behind" guys never talked about the words that cannot be changed to "rapidly" with some fancy Greek footwork.
 
Truth7t7 said:
No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on this earth during the 3.5 year tribulation.
Click to expand...

You are mis-defining the phrase "the Day of the Lord" in the same way that the "amill-teachings" mis-defines it.

Paul tells us in 1Th5:2-3 that its ARRIVAL is like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... and Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (SAME Grk word). When you begin to align these two passages, you'll then begin to "define" the phrase ("the DOTL") according to the Bible's way of defining it, and not the "amill-teachings' " way of MIS-defining it, as you are currently doing.

You are taking a misstep here, that is leading you off track.



"The Day of the Lord" is not "a singular 24-hr day".




Additionally, the two phrases below are distinct:

--"...that the DOTL shall come like a thief IN THE NIGHT" (THIS refers to the ARRIVAL of the EARTHLY-located "TIME PERIOD");

--"Behold, I come AS A THIEF." (THIS refers to Jesus Himself, in His PERSONAL PRESENCE / HIS PERSON)


... these two items do not take place at the same moment / point-in-time; one PRECEDES the other, in the "chronology."

You'll be better able to see that, once you do what I said at the top of this post (re: the ARRIVAL of that TIME PERIOD being like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"... the FIRST of the very ones Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back