"God loves everyone" - false

[Fastfredy0]

First, thank you for taking the effort to answer my question. Kudos for that.

Question 1:
Your definition of LOVE ... Take pleasure in is a definition of God's Love:
Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST ???? (note: this was @EleventhHour definition and therefore question for her)

If your answer is NO. Would that not be good reason to say "God does not love everyone the same amount"?

"Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST?"
God does not take pleasure in their sinful deeds, but He does take pleasure in the fact that they are His image bearers. One thing He most certainly does NOT take pleasure in is their destruction. He says "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." (Ezekiel 33:11) Why does He not take pleasure in the destruction of people He supposedly hates?

My Response: You avoided the crux of the question. Does God love (take pleasure in) those IN CHRIST as much as those that are not IN CHRIST where LOVE was defined by @EleventhHour as "to take pleasure from". You said God takes displeasure in those NOT IN CHRIST. This implies God takes more displeasure in those NOT IN CHRIST than those IN CHRIST. Those, God does not love everyone the same.
Caveat: This wsas Eleventhhour definition .. so maybe not fair as your definition may be different.
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Question 2:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a definition of love?

They do not presently have a perfect bond of unity with God, of course. That does not mean that there is no desire on God's part for that perfect bond of unity to become effected. Let's put it this way; the Prodigal son did not have a perfect bond of unity when he left his Father's house. Yet, that did not keep his Father from loving him.

My Response: So ... assuming you agree that Col. 3:14 defines LOVE as a PERFECT BOND OF UNITY. Are you saying God loves those with a Perfect Bond Of Unity (those IN CHRIST) the same those without this Bond Of UNITY. That contradicts the biblical definition. God always knew that these people that are NOT IN CHRIST would never have a PERFECT BOND OF UNITY which is a definition of God's Love). How can God love those that lack a PERFECT BOND OF UNITY which is what LOVE is?

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Question 3:
How can a Holy God love that which is unholy? (i.e. son of Satan) Does He deny His own essence? Can He love that which He is repulsed by?

This was already answered before. He does not love that which is unholy, i.e. sin. He loves that which was made in His image.

My response: You say God "does not love that which is unholy" which are all those NOT IN CHRIST; yet God loves people that are UNHOLY. That is a contradiction IMO.
Definition of Holy: Holiness in God is to be regarded not as a distinct attribute, but as the resultant of all God's moral attributes together. In respect to God, holiness means not only that He is separate from all that is unclean and evil but also that He is positively pure and thus distinct from all others. The two aspects of this divine attribute place emphasis on his moral perfection and metaphysical transcendence. Both aspects imply separation from that which is morally or metaphysically inferior.

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Question 4:
Faith cometh by hearing so those that do not hear the gospel have no chance of salvation. Assuming you agree with that statement …
Why does God not ensure the gospel (faith cometh by hearing) is sent to those He loves?

The issue of the fate of the unevangelized is a whole different subject, but personally, I do not place limits on God's ability to effect salvation even in those cases.
“God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4)
If He desires them to be saved, they can be saved.

How are people that never hear the gospel saved?(Not talking about age of accountability) This is a doctrine I am unfamiliar with. Are more people saved via this method than those saved by the gospel?

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Question 5:

5) This is a repeat of question 2.

My Response: Oooops, my bad

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Thanks for answering my questions. Only one that attempted so far (I haven't caught up... maybe someone attempted)

 

[Magenta]

John 3:16

 

[Fastfredy0]

Question 6:

6) This is a two-part question.

"What is your explanation for so many verses telling us God hates, loathes, is repulsed by ... those you say He loves?"

I already addressed this issue in a previous post. This is a case of biblical phenomenological language. Just as one would not read passages like Exodus 32:14, Genesis 6:6, Amos 7:3, and others that talk about God repenting or changing His mind, in a straightfoward fashion, so too should these passages be read figuratively.

My response: Well, hard to argue with interpretation that verses are figurative. I can't disprove it easily ... you can't prove it easily.

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7) This logic is faulty even from a Calvinistic perspective. Let's assume Calvinism is correct and God only loves the elect... are you saying He only started loving the elect AFTER they began to obey Him? Are you saying He didn't love them before their conversion, or are you saying that those who are elect were never sinners? Even Calvinists agree that God loved some people from eternity past, not because of their obedience but despite their disobedience.

My response: I withdraw the question as the logic is not simple.

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Question 8 and 9:

8) No, I can't. But as you said, that's circumstancial and supports neither argument.

9) Again, I can't. But as you said, that's circumstancial and supports neither argument.

My response: Agreed. This evidence, though it tends to support my argument, is circumstantial

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Question 10:

Assuming God loves everyone, one assume God would not favor any group of people and therefore each group would be represented in heaven by relatively proportional numbers. Assuming you agree with this statement … Why do we see such disproportionality. Consider: 1 Corinthians 1:26Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

10) Good question. I don't know. That's a mystery. But Calvinists have their mysteries too.

My Response: Well, I am impressed that you have an open mind. I hope my mind is as open.
Agreed, Calvinists have mysteries also.

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Here's an example of where a Calvinist will typically appeal to mystery: Why did God choose you over some reprobate? Was it something about who you are as an individual, or was it just random luck?

Calvinists (typically) can't answer that it was luck because that would completely de-personalize what Jesus did on the Cross. Even the most hard-nosed Calvinists I know believe that Jesus died for them. The elect are not just a random faceless number, they believe the atonement was personal. But if that's the case, how do you escape the conclusion that it was something about YOU that caused God to love you more than someone else. Calvinists can't say that because that would be a basis for pride, which they claim Calvinism is totally opposed to. So they just avoid that question and appeal to mystery if it ever comes up.

OH, this is an interesting proposition. I will give my take (not sure what official Calvinist opinion is... or even if it is a homogeneous opinion. )
Disclaimer: Just my opinion
Going to metaphor of CLAY in Romans...Has the potter [God] no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use?
God modes each individual for his purpose. It is empirically obvious that some are smarter than other, healthier than others. Thus, God molded me (for example) ... said this hunk of clay will have an IQ over 80, live was Christian parents, hear the gospel, yahda, yahda ... God then says, I will give the hunk of clay faith and make him one of my sons and I will love him because of what I have made of him. (Analogy: Maybe like me with toy soldiers. I like the green ones and the blue ones I don't like and beat them in play battles. The toy soldiers have not value in themselves, only what value I assign).
So, under this scenario ... I have nothing to brag about (what do you have that was not given you ... nothing ... 1 Cor. 4:7).

Caveat1: God sovereignty controls ALL things (Eph. 1:11) ....yeah, I know opposition boasts of free will but this is mine thoughts

Note: This would solve, in my opinion, the verse(s) saying God doesn't show favoritism. Empirically, FROM MAN"S PERSPECTIVE, it is obvious God has favorites. (Example: nation of Israel, making some wise and others not wise ... ). But FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE, God made things to LOVE and God allowed (not made) things to NOT LOVE, He has not favoritism based on what we do. His favoritism is based on His plan.
Anyways... getting off topic

Again, thanks for civil and thoughtful discourse.

 

[DanielT]

Again, thanks for civil and thoughtful discourse.

Don't mention it. I love thoughtful discourse as well.

I will respond to your responses at a later time...

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think you have answered all the questions posed to me. Thank you

Okay @Fastfredy0

You have your answers

I did not see your answers. Is @DanielT answers the same as yours; if not, what is your POSTING number?

Aside: Maybe this needs to be qualified. When you and I are saying GOD LOVES EVERYONE ... do we mean God loves everyone THE SAME AMOUNT? For example, I say God loves everyone where love means 'volitional to favor according to the loveliness of the object'. So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people. But I would also say GOD loves those IN CHRIST a GREAT deal more that the minimalist way He loves those that are not IN CHRIST.
So to be clear, are you saying God loves everyone person without exception a similar amount.

Aside: I don't want to be arguing about two different ideas of what the question at hand is.

 

[EleventhHour]

I did not see your answers. Is @DanielT answers the same as yours; if not, what is your POSTING number?

Aside: Maybe this needs to be qualified. When you and I are saying GOD LOVES EVERYONE ... do we mean God loves everyone THE SAME AMOUNT? For example, I say God loves everyone where love means 'volitional to favor according to the loveliness of the object'. So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people. But I would also say GOD loves those IN CHRIST a GREAT deal more that the minimalist way He loves those that are not IN CHRIST.
So to be clear, are you saying God loves everyone person without exception a similar amount.

Aside: I don't want to be arguing about two different ideas of what the question at hand is.

I will have go back and cross check... this is getting mighty complicated.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I will have go back and cross check... this is getting mighty complicated.

Agreed. I try to organize things; put numbers on my questions for example. Forum not optimal method of discourse but you do have a written record to refer to.

 

[Magenta]

Note: This would solve, in my opinion, the verse(s) saying God doesn't show favoritism. Empirically, FROM MAN"S PERSPECTIVE, it is obvious God has favorites. (Example: nation of Israel, making some wise and others not wise ... ). But FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE, God made things to LOVE and God allowed (not made) things to NOT LOVE, He has not favoritism based on what we do. His favoritism is based on His plan.

The problem is that Calvinism teaches that God DID make some for the purpose of destroying them.

Next?

 

[FrankChatter]

I did not see your answers. Is @DanielT answers the same as yours; if not, what is your POSTING number?

Aside: Maybe this needs to be qualified. When you and I are saying GOD LOVES EVERYONE ... do we mean God loves everyone THE SAME AMOUNT? For example, I say God loves everyone where love means 'volitional to favor according to the loveliness of the object'. So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people. But I would also say GOD loves those IN CHRIST a GREAT deal more that the minimalist way He loves those that are not IN CHRIST.
So to be clear, are you saying God loves everyone person without exception a similar amount.

Aside: I don't want to be arguing about two different ideas of what the question at hand is.

Does he send more rain to those he love more and less to those he "minimally" loves?

This type of "argument" seems desperate.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Does he send more rain to those he love more and less to those he "minimally" loves?

This type of "argument" seems desperate.

??????? Not sure what your point is.
Also, you misquoted me.
I am confused.

Your quote: Does he send more rain to those he love more and less to those he "minimally" loves? Post 409
I said: So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people. Post 407

 

[FrankChatter]

??????? Not sure what your point is.
Also, you misquoted me.
I am confused.

Your quote: Does he send more rain to those he love more and less to those he "minimally" loves? Post 409
I said: So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people. Post 407

I should have read your post more carefully.

To say that "So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people" is to try and read into a partiality that is not favored by the command to love our enemies though in your view we can do it minimally.

“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I should have read your post more carefully.
To say that "So, I would say God favors (loves) everyone in a minimalist way as in the "RAIN" falls on the good and wicked people" is to try and read into a partiality that is not favored by the command to love our enemies though in your view we can do it minimally.

The topic is DOES GOD LOVE EVERYONE. The topic is not LOVE OUR ENEMIES. It is an error to conflate the two IMO.

“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

The topic is DOES GOD LOVE EVERYONE. The topic is not LOVE OUR ENEMIES. It is an error to conflate the two.

Finally, the point of my post was to ensure we (eleventhhour and I) had a common understanding of the word LOVE in the context of God's Love. So, respectfully, 'you misunderstood what I said', 'misquoted me' and 'misunderstood the context of my post to Eleventhhour'.

Again, the topic is: God's Love for Man ... and not Man's Love for man which is a different relationship and different definition for LOVE (unless you can show the ALMIGHTY's LOVE for man is the same as ours which is a long haul up a narrow, winding road IMO.)

 

[tourist]

That looks really good on bumper stickers, but its void of any scripture to back it up.

The Word of God is not returned void. The entire bible backs it up. I believe that's a sufficient amount of scripture.

 

[tourist]

All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3

This verse is well worth considerable thought.

 

[tourist]

Does he send more rain to those he love more and less to those he "minimally" loves?

This type of "argument" seems desperate.

Some times sending more rain will result in a flood.

 

[oldethennew]

PRO. 8:17.
I love them that love Me; and those that seek Me early shall find Me.
JAMES 4:4.
You adulterers and adulteresses, know you not that the friendship of the world is 'enmity with God'?
whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is 'the enemy of God'.
JOHN 3:16.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.
19.
And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and 'men loved darkness rather than Light',
because their deeds were evil. -
Yes, God does LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD, but, this does not exclude Judgment and Condemnation,
for some' that 'love wickedness' more than Righteousness, it is 'appropriate and an 'act of Love',
to put 'an end to their existence', even as 'Sodom and Gomorrah ...

 

[MattforJesus]

God does love everyone for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and Jesus died for the sins of the world, for He is the Lamb which takes away the sins of the world.

But not everyone will have salvation for if everyone had salvation we would not be on earth for it would serve no purpose, and God would of created us to be directly with Him and cut out the earth and it's problems and hurt, and the result would be the same for we would be saved regardless of whether we accepted the truth or not.

Unless all people actually accepted the truth which we know that will not happen as atheists, and people that rejected the truth have died.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God does love everyone for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son

Why would God die for those He knew would reject Him? This makes no sense. It like me sacrificing my life to enable 1 + 1 to equal 3. It is a useless cause.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God is immutable and thus His love, hate, wrath does not change for anyone.

God loved/loves/will love believers (Ephesians 1:5) always as they are in Christ and God loves the Son (John 3:35).

God hates the non believers per:

• Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them [keeping them, taking them to heart as the rule of his life].’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
• 1 Corinthians 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord [does not obey and respect and believe in Jesus Christ and His message], he is to be accursed (strong dislike of or anger toward someone).
• If you want to replace HATE with LOVE LESS ... I will for convenience cede the point and stipulate that God loves everyone but those He loves less He loves A LOT LESS and sends them to hell

God has wrath for the non-elect per:

• John 3:36 He that believeth [the elect] on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son [the non-elect] shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (KJV)
• Romans 1:18 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
• Ephesians 5:6 “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

It would be incredulous to believe Christ died for those He eternally hates and for whom He has eternal wrath.

Nothing that includes any imperfection is to be assigned to Almighty God: he is God all-sufficient; his work is perfect. But a natural affection/love in God to the good and salvation of the unbelievers, being never completed, carries along with it a great deal of imperfection; it must also need be exceedingly prejudicial to the absolute blessedness and happiness of Almighty God.

If Christ died for "every person, then why would anyone go to hell? What is left for God to punish? The usual answer is that a person must accept what Christ has done, else God would still condemn him even though Christ has fully paid for his sins. But this means that God would punish the same sins twice – once on Christ as he suffered on the cross, and a second time on the person who has committed those sins." To this some reply, "Well God died for all sin save that of unbelief". But why then does He punish people unequally if they be in hell for the sin of unbelief only?

Unlimited redemptive thought would have God intending nothing, neither was anything effected by Christ, -- that no benefit arises to any immediately by his death but what is common to all and every soul, though never so cursedly unbelieving here and eternally damned hereafter, until an act of some, not procured for them by Christ, (for if it were, why have they it not all alike?) to wit, faith, do distinguish them from others. Now, this seems to drain the virtue, value, fruits and effects of the satisfaction and death of Christ. In other words, Christ died for everyone without exception, but His death is completely ineffectual and without any benefit until an act of man is accomplished; that act not procured for them by Christ.

That love which is the cause of giving Christ is also always the cause of the bestowing of all other good things: Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Therefore, if the love there mentioned be the cause of sending Christ, as it is, it must also cause all other things to be given with him, and so can be towards none but those who have those things bestowed on them; which are only believers.

If salvation for everyone in the world be intended, why doth not the Lord, in the pursuit of this love, reveal Jesus Christ to every one whom he so loved? Strange! that the Lord should so love men as to give his only-begotten Son for them, and yet not once by any means signify this his love to them, as to innumerable he doth not! Unless you will grant:

1. some to be beloved and hated also from eternity;
2. The love of God towards innumerable to be fruitless and vain;
3. The Son of God to be given to them who, first, never hear word of him; secondly, have no power granted to believe in him;
4. fourthly, That God is mutable in his love, or else still loveth those that be in hell;
5. That he doth not give all things to them to whom he gives his Son, contrary to Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 

[Blade]

Lets see.... to me its like.. I have this book "knowing GOD". I tell Him "I loved this book" and now I know everything about GOD! So He just smiles and takes me to this library where I find the book I have is just one of an endless "Knowing God". It was as far as the eye could see.. no end.

For me its silly. What we just tossed off all this SIN and now we can see more clearly? Wont work. No matter what we still will only see through a clouded glass. What I am 59.. and God is how old? Yeah.. we have a book (PRAISE GOD) but its just a tiny taste and then its ONLY what we need here.

How many times did Israel leave Him.. forgot about Him and EVERYTHING He did for them? No one loved Him. In this whole earth.. if none are righteous .. we think LOVE can still shine through? No. If we loved God we would not have taken a bite. Christ said only what the Father said. And it has not changed. "if you love me keep my words". Adam and Eve.. loved God so much .. they disobeyed Him.

And just who did Christ come for? And ALL those He healed? He does the same thing today. Healing touching those that don't even know Him. Showing Himself in dreams and visions and more to people that HATE Him then tells them how much they are loved. Love.. a word we know nothing about.

So the answers given.. really wonderful to read yet all we read is what each of us personally see and understand. That "knowing God" book? Theres a truth in that. Well I can't be the only one where the deeper farther I go in Him. When I think and know I can SEE! He shows me something and I feel I have not even started to understand. I can take it.. keep going Father..I reading EVERY book! Pfft so you know where I'll be lol