The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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The Jews came under the new covenant when Jesus came the first time, they aren't still under the law.
(Hos 6:1) Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
(Hos 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6 is a prophecy of Jesus being in the tomb for 2 days and then being raised from the dead on the 3rd day.
Hosea was literally raised from the dead on the third day when the Old Testament saints rose with Christ. Why would I take the 1000 years as a day interpretation?
What do you believe the "two days" and "in the third day" mean, in that passage (in that post), re: Israel's "future"? How was that fulfilled, in your view (if you think it was)? [I provided explanation in that post]
Post #231 (of this thread): https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4264790
[I placed additional scripture references (did not type out whole passages, due to making the post too lengthy) which are placed toward the bottom of the post... even though people tend not to look them up and examine them, to the point... but I wanted to make sure the reader of this post takes note of them, as well, when considering the point of that post... and I would note here, that Peter had said "be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING"
]
Post #231 (of this thread): https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4264790
[I placed additional scripture references (did not type out whole passages, due to making the post too lengthy) which are placed toward the bottom of the post... even though people tend not to look them up and examine them, to the point... but I wanted to make sure the reader of this post takes note of them, as well, when considering the point of that post... and I would note here, that Peter had said "be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING"
]
(Hos 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6 is a prophecy of Jesus being in the tomb for 2 days and then being raised from the dead on the 3rd day.
Hosea was literally raised from the dead on the third day when the Old Testament saints rose with Christ. Why would I take the 1000 years as a day interpretation?
Did you read the post?
The passage in Hosea tells us that the time-frame commences when He will "RETURN TO MY PLACE UNTIL" (that is, FROM His ascension, NOT PRIOR to it )
__________
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away. [compare this "go away" with what He'd said in John 13-16 ]
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [...]
The passage in Hosea tells us that the time-frame commences when He will "RETURN TO MY PLACE UNTIL" (that is, FROM His ascension, NOT PRIOR to it
)__________
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away. [compare this "go away" with what He'd said in John 13-16
]I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [...]
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So, ^ the earlier references to this, were here:
John 7:33 V-PIA-1S
GRK: εἰμὶ καὶ ὑπάγω πρὸς τὸν
NAS: with you, then I go to Him who sent
KJV: and [then] I go unto
INT: I am and I go to the [one]
[see v.34 also (for context, v.32-36)]
John 8:14 V-PIA-1S
GRK: καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς δὲ
NAS: from and where I am going; but you do not know
KJV: and whither I go; but ye
INT: and where I go you however
John 8:14 V-PIA-1S
GRK: ἢ ποῦ ὑπάγω
NAS: from or where I am going.
KJV: and whither I go.
INT: or where I go
John 8:21 V-PIA-1S
GRK: αὐτοῖς Ἐγὼ ὑπάγω καὶ ζητήσετέ
NAS: again to them, I go away,
KJV: I go my way, and
INT: to them I go away and you will seek
John 8:21 V-PIA-1S
GRK: ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ
NAS: to them, I go away, and you will seek
KJV: whither I go, ye cannot
INT: where I go you not
John 8:22 V-PIA-1S
GRK: Ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ
NAS: Where I am going, you cannot
KJV: Whither I go, ye cannot
INT: Where I go you not
John 7:33 V-PIA-1S
GRK: εἰμὶ καὶ ὑπάγω πρὸς τὸν
NAS: with you, then I go to Him who sent
KJV: and [then] I go unto
INT: I am and I go to the [one]
[see v.34 also (for context, v.32-36)]
John 8:14 V-PIA-1S
GRK: καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς δὲ
NAS: from and where I am going; but you do not know
KJV: and whither I go; but ye
INT: and where I go you however
John 8:14 V-PIA-1S
GRK: ἢ ποῦ ὑπάγω
NAS: from or where I am going.
KJV: and whither I go.
INT: or where I go
John 8:21 V-PIA-1S
GRK: αὐτοῖς Ἐγὼ ὑπάγω καὶ ζητήσετέ
NAS: again to them, I go away,
KJV: I go my way, and
INT: to them I go away and you will seek
John 8:21 V-PIA-1S
GRK: ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ
NAS: to them, I go away, and you will seek
KJV: whither I go, ye cannot
INT: where I go you not
John 8:22 V-PIA-1S
GRK: Ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ
NAS: Where I am going, you cannot
KJV: Whither I go, ye cannot
INT: Where I go you not
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^ ETA (adding to my Posts #644, esp #645 and #646):
"G5217 - hupago"
"depart, go away.
"From hupo and ago; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. Withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively -- depart, get hence, go (a-)way."
https://biblehub.com/greek/5217.htm
"G5217 - hupago"
"depart, go away.
"From hupo and ago; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. Withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively -- depart, get hence, go (a-)way."
https://biblehub.com/greek/5217.htm
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Did you read the post?
The passage in Hosea tells us that the time-frame commences when He will "RETURN TO MY PLACE UNTIL" (that is, FROM His ascension, NOT PRIOR to it )
__________
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away.
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [...]
The passage in Hosea tells us that the time-frame commences when He will "RETURN TO MY PLACE UNTIL" (that is, FROM His ascension, NOT PRIOR to it
)__________
14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them to pieces
and then go away.
I will carry them off
where no one can rescue them.
15 Then I will return to My place
until they admit their guilt and seek My face;
in their affliction
they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”
6:1 Come, let us [...]
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1
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Matthew 26:24 -
"The Son of Man will go [G5217 - hypagei / hupago - go away] just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed. It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
[this corresponds with what the prophecy in Daniel 9:26a said of Him: "And after 62 Weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and have nothing [or, but not for himself]"]
"The Son of Man will go [G5217 - hypagei / hupago - go away] just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed. It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
[this corresponds with what the prophecy in Daniel 9:26a said of Him: "And after 62 Weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and have nothing [or, but not for himself]"]
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I agree, and he's talking about his death.
Look at the account in John 16. Jesus said a little while and you wont see me, then again, in a little while (3 days) you will see me again. Verse 20 their sorrow of his death is turned to joy by his resurrection.
Joh 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy (the 3rd day).
Look at the account in John 16. Jesus said a little while and you wont see me, then again, in a little while (3 days) you will see me again. Verse 20 their sorrow of his death is turned to joy by his resurrection.
Joh 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy (the 3rd day).
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Dispensationalist will not accept the fact that Hosea and all the Old Testament saints rose with Jesus and ascended to heaven with him. That makes Hosea 6 crystal clear as to the timing. On the 3rd day Hosea and the rest of the Old Testament saints rose with Jesus.
Hosea and the Old Testament saints aren't going to die again and then be raised from the dead again 2000 years down the road.
Hosea and the Old Testament saints aren't going to die again and then be raised from the dead again 2000 years down the road.
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I Google what is preterism mean
Quote
Preterist” means past in fulfillment,
End quote.
I am not sure is that mean they believe everything in the bible had been happen?
If so than when this verse happen?
Matt 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Quote
Preterist” means past in fulfillment,
End quote.
I am not sure is that mean they believe everything in the bible had been happen?
If so than when this verse happen?
Matt 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
I have provided numerous accounts of 1 first hand account and many others from several Church Fathers confirming that John was indeed placed onto the Isle of Patmos under the orders of Domitian around 94 AD. And then after Domitian's death in 96 AD, John was released and he lived the rest of his days till around 100 AD serving in the Church of Ephesus (the Church Paul originated).
Are you then claiming the Church Fathers are not being honest here?
And by the fact, the Church Fathers make this claim, how then would it apply to 70 AD/preterism?
Knowing from the Church Fathers that John served and wrote Revelations around 95 AD, wouldn't that make John's vision more relative to our day and time and coming events?
Jesus returned with all power and glory, with all his enemies defeated when he rose from the dead. His kingdom came and some of us are living in it right now. Others are like the Jews, they are still waiting for a physical kingdom with isn't coming. Jesus clearly said "My kingdom is not of this world".
All nations is the gentiles, they were gathered and the chosen ones were given to Christ. Those are the sheep, the goats do not belong to him.
All nations is the gentiles, they were gathered and the chosen ones were given to Christ. Those are the sheep, the goats do not belong to him.
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Aahhhmm. He did return to His place, heaven. Visibility. In a cloud. Until the restoration per prophecy. Which hasn't happen yet or in 70AD either. Which matches everything DivineWatermark has posted. I have no idea why the confusion. All of this is crystal clear.
Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
Most of our current beliefs come from the Church Fathers. This includes the supposed Creeds, the Trinity, how the Church is to operate, etc.
How is it we can accept the Church Fathers for the Trinity and for the Creeds, but many do not want to accept the fact that ALL OF THEM have confirmed that John was indeed placed onto the Isle of Patmos under the orders of Domitian around 94 AD. And then after Domitian's death in 96 AD, John was released and he lived the rest of his days till around 100 AD serving in the Church of Ephesus (the Church Paul originated)?
How is it we can pick and choose like this?
Are some declaring the Church Fathers are truthful in describing our Triune God, how the Church should operate, but THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOW LYING ABOUT JOHN?
How do you call yourselves Believers but choose to refuse what the Church Fathers claim?
How is it we can accept the Church Fathers for the Trinity and for the Creeds, but many do not want to accept the fact that ALL OF THEM have confirmed that John was indeed placed onto the Isle of Patmos under the orders of Domitian around 94 AD. And then after Domitian's death in 96 AD, John was released and he lived the rest of his days till around 100 AD serving in the Church of Ephesus (the Church Paul originated)?
How is it we can pick and choose like this?
Are some declaring the Church Fathers are truthful in describing our Triune God, how the Church should operate, but THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOW LYING ABOUT JOHN?
How do you call yourselves Believers but choose to refuse what the Church Fathers claim?
Yes, there are TWO PARTS in that Hosea passage, if you will notice in particular, in v.14.
Recall also my related post (which pertains to even "BEFORE His death"... at His "arrest / trials" and the "cut off" issue):
[see the "CUT OFF" wording in: (see below) ]
[quoting old post]
"For I was like a gentle lamb led to slaughter; I did not know that they had plotted against me: “Let us destroy the tree with its fruit; let us cut him off [H3772] from the land of the living, that his name will be remembered no more.” " -- Jeremiah 11:19
https://biblehub.com/text/jeremiah/11-19.htm
[similar to the wording in Isaiah 53:7 which most see as corresponding with Matthew 26:61-63, 27:12-16; Mark 14:57-61, 15:3-4; Luke 23:8-11; John 19:9-10, Jesus' arrest / @ His trials that very week following the conclusion of the 69 Weeks total (Palm Sunday)... See also Zech14:2 there used with a negative, "not be cut off [from the city]"]
[note: I know that Jer11:19 likely refers to Jeremiah the prophet, but I think is also a prophecy concerning Jesus; just like Psalm 72 ("the king chapter") pertains to both Solomon and Jesus; and it's commonly believed that in such contexts ^ , the phrase "the city" pertains to "Jerusalem" and the phrase "the land" (like in Jer11:19 above) pertains specifically to "Israel"; and this would correspond to the phrase in Dan9:26a "shall be cut off [/'but not for himself'; or, 'and have nothing' as some translations have it]"... this makes sense in view of both the prophecy of Dan9:24 which is concerning "DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel's] people, AND UPON thy [Daniel's] HOLY CITY" and of His "be cut off," in view of these other passages (relating, as I see it)]
Acts 8:31-35 -
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. [<--perhaps TWO parts here in this verse; Part A and Part B, if you will (not saying at different points in time, mind you)]
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
[again, see also Matthew 26:61-63, 27:12-16; Mark 14:57-61, 15:3-4; Luke 23:8-11; John 19:9-10 (re: Jesus' arrest / @ His trials)]
-----[and]-----
Notice the phrase "the land of the living" in Jer11:19 ( in that post above ^ )... Which phrase is found 7x in Ezekiel (notice the CONTEXT of the first one) -
Ezekiel 26:20 -
"When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;"
[see context from vv.2-3 - "2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste: 3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up."]
Ezekiel 32:23 -
"Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living."
Ezekiel 32:24 -
"There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit."
Ezekiel 32:25 -
"They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain."
Ezekiel 32:26 -
"There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living."
Ezekiel 32:27 -
"And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living."
Ezekiel 32:32 -
"For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God."
[end quoting my posts]
Recall also my related post (which pertains to even "BEFORE His death"... at His "arrest / trials" and the "cut off" issue):
[see the "CUT OFF" wording in: (see below) ]
[quoting old post]
"For I was like a gentle lamb led to slaughter; I did not know that they had plotted against me: “Let us destroy the tree with its fruit; let us cut him off [H3772] from the land of the living, that his name will be remembered no more.” " -- Jeremiah 11:19
https://biblehub.com/text/jeremiah/11-19.htm
[similar to the wording in Isaiah 53:7 which most see as corresponding with Matthew 26:61-63, 27:12-16; Mark 14:57-61, 15:3-4; Luke 23:8-11; John 19:9-10, Jesus' arrest / @ His trials that very week following the conclusion of the 69 Weeks total (Palm Sunday)... See also Zech14:2 there used with a negative, "not be cut off [from the city]"]
[note: I know that Jer11:19 likely refers to Jeremiah the prophet, but I think is also a prophecy concerning Jesus; just like Psalm 72 ("the king chapter") pertains to both Solomon and Jesus; and it's commonly believed that in such contexts ^ , the phrase "the city" pertains to "Jerusalem" and the phrase "the land" (like in Jer11:19 above) pertains specifically to "Israel"; and this would correspond to the phrase in Dan9:26a "shall be cut off [/'but not for himself'; or, 'and have nothing' as some translations have it]"... this makes sense in view of both the prophecy of Dan9:24 which is concerning "DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel's] people, AND UPON thy [Daniel's] HOLY CITY" and of His "be cut off," in view of these other passages (relating, as I see it)]
Acts 8:31-35 -
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. [<--perhaps TWO parts here in this verse; Part A and Part B, if you will (not saying at different points in time, mind you)]
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
[again, see also Matthew 26:61-63, 27:12-16; Mark 14:57-61, 15:3-4; Luke 23:8-11; John 19:9-10 (re: Jesus' arrest / @ His trials)]
-----[and]-----
Notice the phrase "the land of the living" in Jer11:19 ( in that post above ^ )... Which phrase is found 7x in Ezekiel (notice the CONTEXT of the first one) -
Ezekiel 26:20 -
"When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;"
[see context from vv.2-3 - "2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste: 3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up."]
Ezekiel 32:23 -
"Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living."
Ezekiel 32:24 -
"There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit."
Ezekiel 32:25 -
"They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain."
Ezekiel 32:26 -
"There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living."
Ezekiel 32:27 -
"And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living."
Ezekiel 32:32 -
"For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God."
[end quoting my posts]
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