Let's Add to the Gospel!

[eternally-gratefull]

The OP started by quoting Paul correct?

So my point was James always believed Jews needed to do works, together with faith, for salvation. (James 2:14).

In that sense, he was adding to Paul.

That is not true

You have totally mistranslated James. He is not preaching against Paul, His message was directed to a different group. People who thought you were saved by mere belief and could continue to live like you always did.

He spoke against a CLAIMED faith which was dead (devoid of works) Licentiousness

Paul spoke against a claimed faith which was in self (works) Legalism

Both spoke the same gospel.

We are saved BY GRACE through FAITH, made new creatures who perform works created for us to do (eph 2: 8 - 10) which is why James said, If you claim you have the faith of eph 2 vs 8-9, but do not have the works of eph 2: 10, your faith was dead. You were never saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jews who believed still needed to keep the Law, including circumcising their kids, according to James.

That is what Acts 21:20-25 is saying, correct?

No

Acts 21 is saying that it is ok for the jews to keep circumcising their children

But do not force the gentiles. who NEVER had this tradition. Like some Jews were trying to do.

 

[Guojing]

That is not true

You have totally mistranslated James. He is not preaching against Paul, His message was directed to a different group. People who thought you were saved by mere belief and could continue to live like you always did.

He spoke against a CLAIMED faith which was dead (devoid of works) Licentiousness

Paul spoke against a claimed faith which was in self (works) Legalism

Both spoke the same gospel.

We are saved BY GRACE through FAITH, made new creatures who perform works created for us to do (eph 2: 8 - 10) which is why James said, If you claim you have the faith of eph 2 vs 8-9, but do not have the works of eph 2: 10, your faith was dead. You were never saved.

I take James as what he literally states in his letter.

James is not such a bad communicator that he will need anyone of us to help him explain what he really meant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I take James as what he literally states in his letter.

James is not such a bad communicator that he will need anyone of us to help him explain what he really meant.

I take him literally too. In context.

As Crossnote said, this is not the topic of the op. so moving on.

 

[Guojing]

No

Acts 21 is saying that it is ok for the jews to keep circumcising their children

But do not force the gentiles. who NEVER had this tradition. Like some Jews were trying to do.

The term "zealous for the law" was used to describe the Jews who believed.

It is not merely saying "okay".

 

[Guojing]

I take him literally too. In context.

As Crossnote said, this is not the topic of the op. so moving on.

You are reading Paul into James to me.

Yes, we can agree to disagree here.

 

[garee]

Acts 21:18-21
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Simple questions from a reading of this account.

1. Did James believed that Jews who believed in Jesus still needed to circumcise their kids, and walk after the customs?
2. Did James suggest to Paul to participate in such a custom so that "all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."?
3. Did James exempt the Gentiles from having to follow the Law of Moses?

I would offer. The key to understanding the false idea idea of pitting one prophet against another (flesh and blood against flesh and blood) is how we define the word "faith". The gospel power that works in these earthen bodies of death.. .

The faith in Ephesians 2 is not without Christ's labor of love. It is impossible to separate faith (the plan of two working together( father and Son) . Salvation is all together one work of God on faith as a work . The plan (faith ) and the execution' (work.) And God saw it was good.

No plan. "let there be" . nothing appears.

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

We cannot (blasphemy) have the "faith of Christ' in respect to his labor of love which comes by hearing God in respect to James or Paul .Neither can we have that born again faith that works in us according to Rehab or Abraham two example in the chapter (like Paul and James) having the mutual faith of Christ working in them both.

It faith as it is written performs the good pleasure of God making it our pleasure that he does work with us making our sufferings lighter by giving us rest with him ..

The first verse of James 2 sets the tone for the rest of the chapter . It must be obeyed its a commandment, not just a good idea.

Once the opening commandment is obeyed in verse 1. Then we can get our eyes off each other (flesh and blood) . freeing us of the danger of blasphemy (verse 7) not obeying the commandment in verse 1

James 2:1 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. ..........

Persons....(Peter, Paul Mary. . .Rehab or Abraham . . what the eyes see the temporal "

James 2: 7King James Version (KJV) Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

below (My addition)

James 2:21-26 King James Version (KJV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his (Christ's) works, and by works was faith (Christ's) made perfect ( God's)? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works (Christ's) a man is justified, and not by faith (the plan) only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works,(Christ's) when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith (the plan) without works is dead also.

 

[crossnote]

But now, after believing the truth, you must take up your cross and follow him in word and deed.

Yes, that should happen but it adds nothing to the salvation which Christ has secured us with.
What you are describing is the effects of our salvation.

 

[garee]

Salvation is only found in Christ Jesus. As I see the debates and what the Epistles teach the salvation is different between the Jew and gentile.
Israel is to be redeemed, gentiles are to be born again and grafted into the blood line.
Jesus came to the house of Israel first and only for he was and is their promised Messiah. Because of the rejection Gods grace extended to the gentiles "for the word of the Lord shall not return void." Now salvation is for all of those who believe. Jesus not only is the promised Messiah but now become savior of the world fulfilling prophecy.
The difficulty in Paul's ministry was explaining the fine line of Jew and gentile salvation. For the lack of better words.
Now here's something that some disagree by saying Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again. That's true he did say that but look at this if you will. Was Jesus talking about Nicodemus or Israel? (Jacob)
Jesus said when you see the fig tree blossom and bring forth fruit know that your redemption is near.
As we know in may of 1948 Israel became a state again. The rebirth of Israel if you will.

Have to leave for now.....be back latter.

This is only thoughts not scripture proofed or any doctrine.
Feel free to correct me as I get many of these things going on in my brain.....lol😕😕😕😕

The words Israel and Jacob have meaning attached to them . One represents those born again having the power of God with them to overcome flesh and blood. The other before the born again conversion as a deceiver natural man

I see it more he was talking to mankind the multitude .He is not respecter of corrupted, dying flesh. He informs us to know no man after the flesh as brothers sisters and mothers. All have the same father

Rather than the rebirth of born again Israel (one new birth is required) a new name the father propmised as a beautiful city. . not reckoned of here under the Sun .

He re- named his bride in Acts a more befitting as the bride made up of all nations. Christian . A word with no extra meaning added that literally meanings ."Residents of that heavenly city prepared as His bride the church" She is named after her founder and husband Christ. . Previously named her Israel. . until the time of reformation.
A time like never before or ever again. . . still feeling the effects .

A time when the use of corruptible flesh was cut off .

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.Luke 13 6-9

Leaves are used to represent the temporal like flesh. Represented by the veil . When Adam and Eve were revealed as dead they were shown as naked. The glory of God had departed. They used leaves that had no power to make the letter of the law death without effect.. Fig leaves with no fruit are used to represent the healing of nation .Not the fruit of salvation. We walk by faith.

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

1948 is my birth year. Again we walk by faith .The veil is rent.

 

[Chester]

Please don't pull a verse or two out of James to support your system of works-salvation.
Paul spends four chapters spelling out in great detail the Gospel and you are going to yank a couple of verses out of context from James just to make your 'pet doctrine' of faith+works salvation walk on all fours? James is simply differentiating false profession from true possession, otherwise you are saying Paul and James contradict each other...which is unacceptable if all Scripture is inspired by God.

So let's add to the Gospel! ???

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

I quote only the last part of your first entry above because that is the part I am responding to. I agree with your basic premise in the post that salvation is by faith in Christ and not by faith + works.! Absolutely!

My objection is small, but important. In trying to defend against those who use James to teach faith + works, you wind up doing backwards what those do.

For example: They (works salvationists) might say this: James spends a whole book teaching that you cannot be saved unless you have works, but then you are going to yank a couple of verses out context from Ephesians 2 just to make your pet doctrine that we are saved by faith alone.

(My plea is that we should not ever place one writer against another: they all teach the same thing, though at times from different angles.)

Those using James as a basis for teaching works have to add to what the text actually says to make their point. Many people do the same when using Ephesians 2:8-10 to say that we are saved by faith alone. But Paul does not say that here or anywhere else. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. There are other other places that say we are saved by faith, but nowhere does it say faith alone.

You wrote at one place: "have been regenerated solely on the basis of faith in Jesus and His Gospel (1Cor 15:1-4)?" If you take the word "solely" out of your statement, then you are Biblical. But with the word "solely" it would literally mean that God's grace has nothing to do with the process. Now you added the words "and His Gospel" and it could be argued that "grace" is included in the "Gospel" and that could be correct. OK.

But my point is this: In endeavoring to react to those who teach faith + works from James, do not do the same thing with Paul that they do with James.

Just teach what the Bible says: We are saved by grace through faith, not of works . . ."

 

[garee]

I quote only the last part of your first entry above because that is the part I am responding to. I agree with your basic premise in the post that salvation is by faith in Christ and not by faith + works.! Absolutely!

My objection is small, but important. In trying to defend against those who use James to teach faith + works, you wind up doing backwards what those do.

For example: They (works salvationists) might say this: James spends a whole book teaching that you cannot be saved unless you have works, but then you are going to yank a couple of verses out context from Ephesians 2 just to make your pet doctrine that we are saved by faith alone.

(My plea is that we should not ever place one writer against another: they all teach the same thing, though at times from different angles.)

Those using James as a basis for teaching works have to add to what the text actually says to make their point. Many people do the same when using Ephesians 2:8-10 to say that we are saved by faith alone. But Paul does not say that here or anywhere else. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. There are other other places that say we are saved by faith, but nowhere does it say faith alone.

You wrote at one place: "have been regenerated solely on the basis of faith in Jesus and His Gospel (1Cor 15:1-4)?" If you take the word "solely" out of your statement, then you are Biblical. But with the word "solely" it would literally mean that God's grace has nothing to do with the process. Now you added the words "and His Gospel" and it could be argued that "grace" is included in the "Gospel" and that could be correct. OK.

But my point is this: In endeavoring to react to those who teach faith + works from James, do not do the same thing with Paul that they do with James.

Just teach what the Bible says: We are saved by grace through faith, not of works . . ."

yes we are saved by Christ's work of faith as a labor of the father and his love. One faith. One God

the moment a person tries to separate the work of Christ from the faith of Christ .the attempt dies.

Faith is a work . like fireworks .No fire no displayed work

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, that should happen but it adds nothing to the salvation which Christ has secured us with.
What you are describing is the effects of our salvation.

Yes

Salvation PRODUCES works,, not the other way around.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I quote only the last part of your first entry above because that is the part I am responding to. I agree with your basic premise in the post that salvation is by faith in Christ and not by faith + works.! Absolutely!

My objection is small, but important. In trying to defend against those who use James to teach faith + works, you wind up doing backwards what those do.

For example: They (works salvationists) might say this: James spends a whole book teaching that you cannot be saved unless you have works, but then you are going to yank a couple of verses out context from Ephesians 2 just to make your pet doctrine that we are saved by faith alone.

(My plea is that we should not ever place one writer against another: they all teach the same thing, though at times from different angles.)

Those using James as a basis for teaching works have to add to what the text actually says to make their point. Many people do the same when using Ephesians 2:8-10 to say that we are saved by faith alone. But Paul does not say that here or anywhere else. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. There are other other places that say we are saved by faith, but nowhere does it say faith alone.

You wrote at one place: "have been regenerated solely on the basis of faith in Jesus and His Gospel (1Cor 15:1-4)?" If you take the word "solely" out of your statement, then you are Biblical. But with the word "solely" it would literally mean that God's grace has nothing to do with the process. Now you added the words "and His Gospel" and it could be argued that "grace" is included in the "Gospel" and that could be correct. OK.

But my point is this: In endeavoring to react to those who teach faith + works from James, do not do the same thing with Paul that they do with James.

Just teach what the Bible says: We are saved by grace through faith, not of works . . ."

Just to note, I know you wrote this to Crossnote, but i wanted to make a remark from what I observed from your post

Grace through faith alone does not just come through ephesians2, It is spoken of throughout the whole NT.

 

[Chester]

Just to note, I know you wrote this to Crossnote, but i wanted to make a remark from what I observed from your post

Grace through faith alone does not just come through ephesians2, It is spoken of throughout the whole NT.

You may use the entire New Testament: can you find a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You may use the entire New Testament: can you find a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"?

faith minus works equals faith alone does it not?

Romans 4, Eph 2, Titus 3 are adequate examples.

 

[Chester]

faith minus works equals faith alone does it not?

Romans 4, Eph 2, Titus 3 are adequate examples.

If you say a person is saved by "faith alone," then to take the words literally it is faith and nothing else involved: that means God's grace, Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary, etc. have nothing to do with it!

So you don't mean it that way? Then don't say it as "faith alone"

I have never understood why you have to put works in another basket from faith. Just understand the purpose and function and role of both. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works, but we are God's workmanship created unto good works. God gives grace that enables us to have faith that brings us to salvation out of which we can do works (by His strength) for His honor and glory!

 

[Micaiah-imla]

What if we do not do everythign Jesus did, or achieve his lefel of righteousness?

A true follower will have a heart of Christ to genuinely follow. And by constant practice it becomes second nature to do the works of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you say a person is saved by "faith alone," then to take the words literally it is faith and nothing else involved: that means God's grace, Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary, etc. have nothing to do with it!

No. We are talking about our works. When My parents gave me a gift, it was not because of my work. it was because of their love. they did the work to earn the money to pay for the gift they purchased.

So you don't mean it that way? Then don't say it as "faith alone"

I am saved by my faith apart from any works that I have done, Literally faith alone

I have never understood why you have to put works in another basket from faith. Just understand the purpose and function and role of both. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works, but we are God's workmanship created unto good works. God gives grace that enables us to have faith that brings us to salvation out of which we can do works (by His strength) for His honor and glory!

Because as with the early church, People wish to add works to faith in order to try to save themselves. Because they lack faith that Gods work was enough. So they add in their works.

Why would paul spend so much of his writings apposing a faith plus works false gospel if it was not an issue.

we see today people are doing the very same thing. and just like Paul, Jesus and many others were attacked for preaching salvation by faith alone. We too are being attacked. Because pride, which is the root of licentious and legalistic thinking. is the one thing that must be broken.. If not. it lashes out.. Like you see here.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Yes, that should happen but it adds nothing to the salvation which Christ has secured us with

It adds nothing, yes you are correct,

But it will determine wether or not you endure to the end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A true follower will have a heart of Christ to genuinely follow. And by constant practice it becomes second nature to do the works of Christ.

yes,, Works are a result of salvation.

But sadly many, while changing certain aspects of their life through christ, Never grow and remain babes. Needing to continue to be fed milk instead of meat.

We can not judge them as lost because they do not look to us to be maturing christians..