"Not by works" - false!
- Thread starter DBurrage
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The trouble is that what I'm dealing with on this thread is people who do not want to keep God's commandments.
They want salvation and they say the follow Jesus, but they think their faith in Jesus gives them a free pass to sin and be forgiven no matter how they behave.
These people accuse you of preaching a 'salvation by works' gospel simply for saying that we should keep God's commandments.
John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments"
They want salvation and they say the follow Jesus, but they think their faith in Jesus gives them a free pass to sin and be forgiven no matter how they behave.
These people accuse you of preaching a 'salvation by works' gospel simply for saying that we should keep God's commandments.
John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments"
I believe that we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ.
We will never be able to stop sinning despite our best efforts, but Jesus makes up for this shortfall.
However we do have a duty to keep God's commandments - do you disagree?
I think that if a Christian flagrantly disobeys God, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".
Are you saying that we can flagrantly willfully continue disobeying God and be forgiven regardless of how we behave?
We will never be able to stop sinning despite our best efforts, but Jesus makes up for this shortfall.
However we do have a duty to keep God's commandments - do you disagree?
I think that if a Christian flagrantly disobeys God, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".
Are you saying that we can flagrantly willfully continue disobeying God and be forgiven regardless of how we behave?
I do not agree with your definition of Lordship Salvation. Instead of salvation maintained by good works I would define it as:
salvation evidenced by good works.
Excerpt from https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).
Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.
Granted, the subtle difference is often confused. I think @DBurrage believes in salvation evidenced by good works; but can't articulate it consistently. (Aside: obviously, if person is inconsistent, then not possible to be sure.)
I think the last 2 days the main argument is about the difference between:
1) salvation maintained by good works or
2) salvation evidenced by good works
Some grasp the difference, some can't articulate the difference, some don't know the difference.
IMO
Aside: or maybe it me that can't grasp the difference ...
salvation evidenced by good works.
Excerpt from https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).
Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.
Granted, the subtle difference is often confused. I think @DBurrage believes in salvation evidenced by good works; but can't articulate it consistently. (Aside: obviously, if person is inconsistent, then not possible to be sure.)
I think the last 2 days the main argument is about the difference between:
1) salvation maintained by good works or
2) salvation evidenced by good works
Some grasp the difference, some can't articulate the difference, some don't know the difference.
IMO
Aside: or maybe it me that can't grasp the difference ...
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E
Well you have a problem then...
New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29
Scripture does not contradict itself,
New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29
Scripture does not contradict itself,
E
I do not agree with your definition of Lordship Salvation. Instead of salvation maintained by good works I would define it as:
salvation evidenced by good works.
Excerpt from https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).
Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.
Granted, the subtle difference is often confused. I think @DBurrage believes in salvation evidenced by good works; but can't articulate it consistently. (Aside: obviously, if person is inconsistent, then not possible to be sure.)
I think the last 2 days the main argument is about the difference between:
1) salvation maintained by good works or
2) salvation evidenced by good works
Some grasp the difference, some can't articulate the difference, some don't know the difference.
IMO
Aside: or maybe it me that can't grasp the difference ...
salvation evidenced by good works.
Excerpt from https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).
Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.
Granted, the subtle difference is often confused. I think @DBurrage believes in salvation evidenced by good works; but can't articulate it consistently. (Aside: obviously, if person is inconsistent, then not possible to be sure.)
I think the last 2 days the main argument is about the difference between:
1) salvation maintained by good works or
2) salvation evidenced by good works
Some grasp the difference, some can't articulate the difference, some don't know the difference.
IMO
Aside: or maybe it me that can't grasp the difference ...
This is lordship salvation in a nutshell... submission along with saved by grace through faith
MacArthur
It's not one or the other, it's both.
We must have faith and Jesus AND keep his commandments.
If we deliberately continue sinning after receiving Jesus' into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."
The problem here is that this goes against the wooly and fluffy doctrine that other commentors on this thread have been fed.
We must have faith and Jesus AND keep his commandments.
If we deliberately continue sinning after receiving Jesus' into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."
The problem here is that this goes against the wooly and fluffy doctrine that other commentors on this thread have been fed.