The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[DorothyMae]

John Exiled to Patmos - Amazing Bible Timeline with World History
amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/john-exiled-to-patmos
Oct 12, 2018 · John, the Disciple of Jesus, was banished to Patmos during the latter years of his life. When Rome had exiled John to Patmos, he was the last remaining member of the Twelve Disciples of Jesus Christ. John was born 6 A.D. His life appears on the Bible Timeline Chart between then and 100 AD.

No, John was exiled to Patmos during the reign of Nero. He was around 60 something. I am pretty sure the date of his birth is an estimate or guess, not a fact, despite it being written in black and white.

• Population of Flood estimations 1 source 195 million people/ 2nd source more people than today's 7+ billion:
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• Using them the population would be about 195 million people at the time of the flood. A more resonable, yet low estimate would have a mother 65 years old having six children six years apart, three percent are infertile, and the average age of death is 900.

• Based on what facts? The time between 2 people and Noah was 9 generations. Looking at the dates when the sons were born, it is around 1500 years. Looking at growth rates now, in 1534, it took almost 700 years for the population to double. That rate is now going down, of course. But we start with an already large number of people. From Adam, we are starting with 2. So starting with 2 people So where is this bogus info coming from? What assumptions are made that are not stated to come up with these numbers? There are only 1500 years to go from two to billions in your words. I am not impressed just because you cut and paste something.

World Population at Noah's Flood - Amunrud
www.amunrud.com/noah/population.html

OR

What Was the Population of Earth Before the Flood ...
www.petergoeman.com/population-earth-flood
Even if we use a much smaller growth rate than the previous example for the pre-flood world (e.g., 1.5% per year) that would still get us to 122 billion people at the time of the flood. I have a hard time believing that there were that many people on the planet, but I also realize that the world was made to be a home for many people. Thus, it is quite possible there were many more people on the planet than even our “large” population today.

Concluding Thoughts

• Given the longer lifespans of pre-flood life (e.g., Adam 930 yrs, Jared 962 yrs, etc.), as well as the optimal living conditions, we should expect a faster population growth rate than we currently have today.
• Taking into account that man was inherently bent on evil (as he is today) it is beyond doubt that there was much violence, war, and murder which impacted or slowed population growth. Thus, the actual number may be well below 122 billion.
• However, given the above information, it is reasonable that the pre-flood world had a population [[that may have exceeded the current day. Perhaps even greatly so]].

You need to find out what assumptions are made here. One, the living conditions are likely not optimal since there was no medical care, all food was fresh or little, and no security force at all to prevent violence. Second, the men in question had the named son in their 60s or even after they were over 100. Thus we cannot compare modern birthrates where we only have children over a few decades. That men were having children late does not mean the same ability applied to women. There are too many factors and the author here assume way too much is similar to their own time period. This produces false data.

 

[tanakh]

Exactly! Soon meant soon and it happened within a few years. “Soon” means soon but “coming”
doesn’t always mean in the resurrected body.

You are right but to interpret the events of AD70 as THE second coming is way off beam. At his trial Jesus prophesied his spiritual
appearence in 70AD..............

And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus saying Answerest thou
nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But he held his peace and
answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him and said unto him Art thou the
Christ the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said I am and you will see the Son of man
sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14 : 60-62 KJV

If Jesus was referring here to THE second coming he would have expected the high priest
to still be doddering around

 

[DorothyMae]

I just need to emphasize one more point. The 70 A.D. destruction absolutely happened, it is a historical fact. The a AOB and GT definitely have not yet occurred. The very structure of the text indicates that there are two warnings for two different times, and two different circumstances.
When you think about it you just can't miss it. Give it some time and study. In my opinion this is a VERY critical portion of Scripture, bcause of the confusion that it can cause, the worst outcome of which is the devastating heresy of preterism.

How do you KNOW for a fact that the great tribultation Jesus spoke of has not happened? Where is the structure of the text indicating two warnings for two different times with Jesus said such a thing would never happen again?

Now there are obviously different events, the end indicating not a time of descruction but the second bodily return of Jesus. That is not the issue. But are you suggesting two different times the same event?

Lastly why do you think the view of preterism is devastatin? Where do you see any devastation? Those who believed the kingdoms of this world ARE becoming the kingdoms of our lord went out and saw nations converted. Those who believed JEsus was coming at any moment hunkered down awaiting his return. This world was supposed to go the antichrist so why try to save it, societies with laws of justice and freedom? The evidence to me is the devastating theology of Dispensationalism has rendered the church useless in the society it lived and unwilling to go out since they believed Jesus was coming any minute anyway. There are groups today that discourage young people from getting an education but instead serve their group because JEsus is someing soon and their education will be useless. Very sad but true.

 

[DorothyMae]

You are right but to interpret the events of AD70 as THE second coming is way off beam. At his trial Jesus prophesied his spiritual
appearence in 70AD..............

And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus saying Answerest thou
nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But he held his peace and
answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him and said unto him Art thou the
Christ the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said I am and you will see the Son of man
sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14 : 60-62 KJV

If Jesus was referring here to THE second coming he would have expected the high priest
to still be doddering around

This is where embracing the understanding of what the priests understood when he said that opens up our understanding. They knew he was talking about coming in judgement. And those who pierced him would see it in their own lifetimes, as he promised.

Suddenly one needn't come up with all kind of rationalizations as to why "soon" still hasn't happened 2000 years later. It is impossible to put into the words the experience of having one's eyes opened where one can read of the prophesy Jesus gave and it being fulfilled in 70 AD. John wrote that Revelation was given so that his servants would UNDERSTAND and yet the dispensationalist view takes away all understanding. It is really a great pity. So much of the Bible becomes so clear and it rejoices the heart to read that the fulfillment is still happening where the gospel is going around the world and into the world such that the movement of the christian way cannot be stopped. Evil is not growing larger. The world is not becoming darker, the opposite is happening although not in the west, it is true. But I digress.

 

[biker]

What? Why would an emporer send a 90 year old man who could not walk and only speak a few words at all to Patmos??? Or did you not know that John had to be carried as an old man in his 90s and could only speak a few words. Even your own reasoning is absurd.

You know, when the Jews and later the Romans where killing the Christians, they did not kill them all using the same method. Why do you think a Roman emporer had to use the same method for all?

Several sources claim John lived to be well into the 105 range. And why wouldn't a Roman Emperor assign a cripple to a deserted isle to fend for himself with no weapons, no food rations, just to rot, die, and decay. We are speaking of the Romans here. No compassion and a great sense of placing a prisoner into the most impossible of situations.

 

[biker]

No, John was exiled to Patmos during the reign of Nero. He was around 60 something. I am pretty sure the date of his birth is an estimate or guess, not a fact, despite it being written in black and white.

• Based on what facts? The time between 2 people and Noah was 9 generations. Looking at the dates when the sons were born, it is around 1500 years. Looking at growth rates now, in 1534, it took almost 700 years for the population to double. That rate is now going down, of course. But we start with an already large number of people. From Adam, we are starting with 2. So starting with 2 people So where is this bogus info coming from? What assumptions are made that are not stated to come up with these numbers? There are only 1500 years to go from two to billions in your words. I am not impressed just because you cut and paste something.

You need to find out what assumptions are made here. One, the living conditions are likely not optimal since there was no medical care, all food was fresh or little, and no security force at all to prevent violence. Second, the men in question had the named son in their 60s or even after they were over 100. Thus we cannot compare modern birthrates where we only have children over a few decades. That men were having children late does not mean the same ability applied to women. There are too many factors and the author here assume way too much is similar to their own time period. This produces false data.

Nephilim were abundant in those days. And the ability to live well into the 900's on average while still producing children could have a part in these theories. Incest obviously was accepted by God in the beginning stages. So who is to say a son did not have multiple children with his siblings and possibly the mother. Nowhere did God say who you were allowed to create children with in those days, He just commanded to be fruitful and multiply.


Domitian (Roman Emperors) Busts, Statues, Information, Coins ...
www.romanemperors.com/domitian.htm
Several years later he severely persecuted the sect of the "Christians" and had the apostle John banished to the Island of Patmos. In 92 A.D. two of Domitian's legions were crushed by the Dacians (near modern Romania) and this led to many plots again Domitian's life.

The King and I: The Apostle John and Emperor Domitian, Part 1
biblearchaeology.org/research/new-testament-era/...
Jan 18, 2010 · The Apostle John, exiled to the island of Patmos about AD 95, received a more sure word of prophecy. Not from a raven or Apollo, but from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Book of Revelation begins, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place” (Rv 1:1).

John of Patmos - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos
The text of Revelation states that John was on Patmos, a Greek island where, by most biblical historians, he is considered to be exiled as a result of anti-Christian persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.

Who was emperor Domitian in the bible who banished John to ...
www.answers.com/Q/Who_was_emperor_Domitian_in...
Another answer from our community: The Roman Emperor Domitian banished John to the island of Patmos.

The Patmos Experience Written Meditations - Errol Miller OJ PhD
errolmiller.com/the-patmos-experience
The apostle John was exiled to the island of Patmos in AD 95 by Domitian, Emperor of Rome. Domitian was Emperor of Rome from Ad 81 to 96. Between 93 and 96 he arrested, imprisoned, exiled and executed many of his perceived enemies, including Roman noblemen, Senators and even his wife.

John on the Island of Patmos, Revelation 1:9-11 | Bibleview
bibleview.org/en/bible/revelationpartone/...
John was a prisoner on Patmos because he was preaching about Jesus and that He, Jesus, had been raised from the dead. John had the visions described in Revelation about AD95. The Island of Patmos is a volcanic, treeless, rocky island about 9km by 50km or 6 by 30 miles. It is about 30km or 20 miles off the western coast of modern Turkey.

Could Hegesippus have been mistaken and John was sent to ...
www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/12-15.html
Eusebius records that John was banished to Patmos during Domitian’s 15th year of reign (A.D. 96, EH, III, xx,103). He also records that John returned from Patmos after the death of Domitian (A.D. 96, EH, III, xxiii, 104).

Reading through Revelation – Background: The Man whose ...
pilgrimsprogressrevisted.com/2018/06/01/reading...
Because Christians were regarded as criminals by the Roman emperor Domitian (ruled A.D. 81-96), the apostle John probably suffered from harsh treatment during his exile on Patmos. An early Christian tradition said John was in exile for 18 months.

Apostle John, Polycarp and Patmos | The Puritan Board
www.puritanboard.com/threads/apostle-john...
Domitian died in A.D. 96. As to John’s actual release from Patmos it would likely have been soon after the death of Domitian, as his edicts – such as banishments – would be voided on his death. But we have no accounts of his release.

How did apostle John die? - Bible Study
www.biblestudy.org/.../how-did-apostle-john-die.html
Traditional tomb in Ephesus The Emperor Domitian reigned as Roman Emperor from 81 to 96 A.D. He likely banished John to the island of Patmos, in 95 A.D., with the hope that he would die on the island. Patmos itself is near the coast of Asia Minor and the city of Ephesus.

Isle that is called Patmos - apostle.org
apostle.org/lectures/patmos.htm
John, during his exile in Patmos lodged into a grotto of which today's name is "Apokalypsis". At the Emperor Domitian's death in 97 AD John returned to Ephesus where he lived to a ripe old age.

 

[DorothyMae]

Several sources claim John lived to be well into the 105 range. And why wouldn't a Roman Emperor assign a cripple to a deserted isle to fend for himself with no weapons, no food rations, just to rot, die, and decay.

Because a 90 year old man poses no threat. (Can’t believe I had to write that it’s so obvious. The Romans had law. They weren’t just mean.)

We are speaking of the Romans here. No compassion and a great sense of placing a prisoner into the most impossible of situations.

No they actually had law and order working hard to maintain law and order. They weren’t thugs. People had trials. Paul appealed to Caesar and was acquitted by him and set free.

 

[DorothyMae]

Nephilim were abundant in those days. And the ability to live well into the 900's on average while still producing children could have a part in these theories. Incest obviously was accepted by God in the beginning stages. So who is to say a son did not have multiple children with his siblings and possibly the mother. Nowhere did God say who you were allowed to create children with in those days, He just commanded to be fruitful and multiply.


Domitian (Roman Emperors) Busts, Statues, Information, Coins ...
www.romanemperors.com/domitian.htm
Several years later he severely persecuted the sect of the "Christians" and had the apostle John banished to the Island of Patmos. In 92 A.D. two of Domitian's legions were crushed by the Dacians (near modern Romania) and this led to many plots again Domitian's life.

The King and I: The Apostle John and Emperor Domitian, Part 1
biblearchaeology.org/research/new-testament-era/...
Jan 18, 2010 · The Apostle John, exiled to the island of Patmos about AD 95, received a more sure word of prophecy. Not from a raven or Apollo, but from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Book of Revelation begins, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place” (Rv 1:1).

John of Patmos - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos
The text of Revelation states that John was on Patmos, a Greek island where, by most biblical historians, he is considered to be exiled as a result of anti-Christian persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.

Who was emperor Domitian in the bible who banished John to ...
www.answers.com/Q/Who_was_emperor_Domitian_in...
Another answer from our community: The Roman Emperor Domitian banished John to the island of Patmos.

The Patmos Experience Written Meditations - Errol Miller OJ PhD
errolmiller.com/the-patmos-experience
The apostle John was exiled to the island of Patmos in AD 95 by Domitian, Emperor of Rome. Domitian was Emperor of Rome from Ad 81 to 96. Between 93 and 96 he arrested, imprisoned, exiled and executed many of his perceived enemies, including Roman noblemen, Senators and even his wife.

John on the Island of Patmos, Revelation 1:9-11 | Bibleview
bibleview.org/en/bible/revelationpartone/...
John was a prisoner on Patmos because he was preaching about Jesus and that He, Jesus, had been raised from the dead. John had the visions described in Revelation about AD95. The Island of Patmos is a volcanic, treeless, rocky island about 9km by 50km or 6 by 30 miles. It is about 30km or 20 miles off the western coast of modern Turkey.

Could Hegesippus have been mistaken and John was sent to ...
www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/12-15.html
Eusebius records that John was banished to Patmos during Domitian’s 15th year of reign (A.D. 96, EH, III, xx,103). He also records that John returned from Patmos after the death of Domitian (A.D. 96, EH, III, xxiii, 104).

Reading through Revelation – Background: The Man whose ...
pilgrimsprogressrevisted.com/2018/06/01/reading...
Because Christians were regarded as criminals by the Roman emperor Domitian (ruled A.D. 81-96), the apostle John probably suffered from harsh treatment during his exile on Patmos. An early Christian tradition said John was in exile for 18 months.

Apostle John, Polycarp and Patmos | The Puritan Board
www.puritanboard.com/threads/apostle-john...
Domitian died in A.D. 96. As to John’s actual release from Patmos it would likely have been soon after the death of Domitian, as his edicts – such as banishments – would be voided on his death. But we have no accounts of his release.

How did apostle John die? - Bible Study
www.biblestudy.org/.../how-did-apostle-john-die.html
Traditional tomb in Ephesus The Emperor Domitian reigned as Roman Emperor from 81 to 96 A.D. He likely banished John to the island of Patmos, in 95 A.D., with the hope that he would die on the island. Patmos itself is near the coast of Asia Minor and the city of Ephesus.

Isle that is called Patmos - apostle.org
apostle.org/lectures/patmos.htm
John, during his exile in Patmos lodged into a grotto of which today's name is "Apokalypsis". At the Emperor Domitian's death in 97 AD John returned to Ephesus where he lived to a ripe old age.

That is the personal opinion of the author according to his prechosen biases.

There are copies of Revelation from the 2nd century that say in the text John was sent to Patmos under Nero. Also, Nero was far more cruel to the christians than Domitian. Far more. What Nero did is generally known. He had John boiled in oil. Pretty cruel. He was the most cruel man who ever lived.

John couldn’t walk at 90 nor speak. It is known that he lived with Mary the mother of Jesus in Ephesus afterwards. That is hardly possible when John was a feeble old man and Mary well into 100.

There is a lot more evidence for the early date but it upsets the whole apple cart so I can see why your side has a deep interest in keepining dispensationalism. So you can cut and paste all
the dispensationist pieces you want. Doesn’t make it fact.

 

[Dave-L]

So now you are calling the Protestant Reformers tares?

Most members of any denomination are tares if they cause people to sin. Some denominations are nothing but tares.

 

[Chester]

You should be aware that the literal Second Coming of Christ is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. Therefore its denial is a heresy.

Indeed it is embedded in both the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed.
"And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end."

So when anyone denies this and claims that Christ has already returned "spiritually" in AD 70, that is both a lie and a heresy, since it overthrows the faith of some. Paul had something to say about this in 2 Timothy 2:16-18:

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Yes, you are right - I did not realize till I researched a little that a full preterist does not believe in a literal return of Christ. I was only aware of some I know who are partial preterists -- they do believe in a literal second return - but the rest of Revelation is history.

 

[DorothyMae]

It’s useful, I guess, to have labels, on the whole it is limiting.

 

[Absolutely]

Many respected theologians such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wycliff were historicist, and John Wycliff is the guy who translated Revelation to English. If you're going to say John Wycliffe misinterpreted stuff, then you pretty much undermine the inerrancy of the Bible you're reading.

It's not so much that they misinterpreted history--it's that a lot of history hadn't happened yet. They were in the Reformation. Another 500 years transpired after them.

It's a lesson in humility, because 500 years might pass after you, too, are dead and gone.





Everyone's arguments against someone else destroy the other guy's argument. Nothing new here.

If every side has equal footing there is no truth or discernment.

The Holy Spirit most always tells me "keep reading for context"
When I see error,it is not opinion that rules,it is the bible interpreting the bible.

What you are referencing is opinion vs opinion.
Thus the bible has no absolutes.

Show me where you reference the bible interpreting the bible.

For example when I introduced the flying scorpions,it is so preterest destroying that most of them change the subject.
Thus history destroying the historicist platform.

The mark
The ac being a worldwide event
Buying and selling restricted worldwide
The fiery hailstones
The 144 k
The rapture of rev 14
The flying scorpions.

None of that has happened.
Historicist view is debunked.

 

[Absolutely]

I have no idea what the "gt" is but the planet is not destroyed same as the earth was covered with watering destroying the land creatures but not the whole earth. The wrath of God fell on the city that joyously crucified the Son of God. It all makes beautiful sense.

If one thinks about it, why would anyone fight to the tooth the theology that promises unbelievable suffering for everyone for no reason and delights in the rise of evil? I used to believe that nonsense as well and then my eyes were opened by the facts of history American Christians are ignorant of. And then I wondered why I thought Jesus was coming in a violent military take over ruthlessly taking over control of the whole planet. It was also a shock to learn that this is exactly what the Pharaisees believed. The Jews would rule the world from Jerusalem. Does that really sound like a loving God? He forces by threat of physical punishment obedience? Tyranny of the worst kind?

Yes Jerusalem and tons of Jews destroyed.

I seek to represent the word.
Not make 70 ad encompass more than it actually does.

70 ad is not the great tribulation (gt).
Just a partial fulfillment.

 

[Absolutely]

How do you KNOW for a fact that the great tribultation Jesus spoke of has not happened? Where is the structure of the text indicating two warnings for two different times with Jesus said such a thing would never happen again?

Now there are obviously different events, the end indicating not a time of descruction but the second bodily return of Jesus. That is not the issue. But are you suggesting two different times the same event?

Lastly why do you think the view of preterism is devastatin? Where do you see any devastation? Those who believed the kingdoms of this world ARE becoming the kingdoms of our lord went out and saw nations converted. Those who believed JEsus was coming at any moment hunkered down awaiting his return. This world was supposed to go the antichrist so why try to save it, societies with laws of justice and freedom? The evidence to me is the devastating theology of Dispensationalism has rendered the church useless in the society it lived and unwilling to go out since they believed Jesus was coming any minute anyway. There are groups today that discourage young people from getting an education but instead serve their group because JEsus is someing soon and their education will be useless. Very sad but true.

Show me the mark of the beast
Show me worldwide taking of the mark.
Show me the flying scorpions.
Show me the hailstones of fire.
Show me 70 ad being "tribulation such as the world NEVER WILL SEE AGAIN"

 

[cv5]

How do you KNOW for a fact that the great tribultation Jesus spoke of has not happened? Where is the structure of the text indicating two warnings for two different times with Jesus said such a thing would never happen again?

Now there are obviously different events, the end indicating not a time of descruction but the second bodily return of Jesus. That is not the issue. But are you suggesting two different times the same event?

Lastly why do you think the view of preterism is devastatin? Where do you see any devastation? Those who believed the kingdoms of this world ARE becoming the kingdoms of our lord went out and saw nations converted. Those who believed JEsus was coming at any moment hunkered down awaiting his return. This world was supposed to go the antichrist so why try to save it, societies with laws of justice and freedom? The evidence to me is the devastating theology of Dispensationalism has rendered the church useless in the society it lived and unwilling to go out since they believed Jesus was coming any minute anyway. There are groups today that discourage young people from getting an education but instead serve their group because JEsus is someing soon and their education will be useless. Very sad but true.

Okay I'll bite.
-There's nothing in the way of historical evidence of the GT has occurred.
-Wars famines pestilences and so on continue unabated
-There is nothing remotely close to a one world worship system glorifying Jesus
-preterism is in denial of, and in fact flagrantly defies the many Scriptures that tell us to occupy until He comes, and to wait for the Son to come from heaven.

 

[tanakh]

How do you KNOW for a fact that the great tribultation Jesus spoke of has not happened? Where is the structure of the text indicating two warnings for two different times with Jesus said such a thing would never happen again?

Now there are obviously different events, the end indicating not a time of descruction but the second bodily return of Jesus. That is not the issue. But are you suggesting two different times the same event?

Lastly why do you think the view of preterism is devastatin? Where do you see any devastation? Those who believed the kingdoms of this world ARE becoming the kingdoms of our lord went out and saw nations converted. Those who believed JEsus was coming at any moment hunkered down awaiting his return. This world was supposed to go the antichrist so why try to save it, societies with laws of justice and freedom? The evidence to me is the devastating theology of Dispensationalism has rendered the church useless in the society it lived and unwilling to go out since they believed Jesus was coming any minute anyway. There are groups today that discourage young people from getting an education but instead serve their group because JEsus is someing soon and their education will be useless. Very sad but true.

From what I have read in the NT there was no idea that Christ was coming at any moment. Even Jesus didnt know when he was
coming. He said that no one knows the day or the hour but its a big leap from there to an any moment arrival. Those who shout the loudest are not necessarily right and you cant find a more louder grouping than the Pre Trib followers. Hardly anyone had heard of a Pre Trib Rapture package before Darby and company started espousing it. Preterism in its full form is also a minority view. I see both as opposite extremes. I consider myself as on a spiritual journey the difference being that I am still travelling while many have found a cosy roadside Motel and will probably stay there for the rest of their lives.

 

[cv5]

From what I have read in the NT there was no idea that Christ was coming at any moment. Even Jesus didnt know when he was
coming. He said that no one knows the day or the hour but its a big leap from there to an any moment arrival. Those who shout the loudest are not necessarily right and you cant find a more louder grouping than the Pre Trib followers. Hardly anyone had heard of a Pre Trib Rapture package before Darby and company started espousing it. Preterism in its full form is also a minority view. I see both as opposite extremes. I consider myself as on a spiritual journey the difference being that I am still travelling while many have found a cosy roadside Motel and will probably stay there for the rest of their lives.

I see it as a spectrum of highest probability to lowest probability. This in terms of Scripture, but also observation, and the historical record. We must also take into account the present state of this world by observing it. As of now the pre-trib rapture is far and away that which makes the most compelling case.

 

[DorothyMae]

If every side has equal footing there is no truth or discernment.

The Holy Spirit most always tells me "keep reading for context"
When I see error,it is not opinion that rules,it is the bible interpreting the bible.

What you are referencing is opinion vs opinion.
Thus the bible has no absolutes.

Show me where you reference the bible interpreting the bible.

For example when I introduced the flying scorpions,it is so preterest destroying that most of them change the subject.
Thus history destroying the historicist platform.

The mark
The ac being a worldwide event
Buying and selling restricted worldwide
The fiery hailstones
The 144 k
The rapture of rev 14
The flying scorpions.

None of that has happened.
Historicist view is debunked.

The problem is that you assume literal scorpions as though those creatures were scary. The events were not described as world events but local since the city is actually named a completly local matter. The buying and selling was local. On and on. You probably think the mark is a tattoo as though such a thing condemns one to hell. The warning to flee one city, Jerusalem, was real and the christians did. That doesn’t fit at all into dispensationalism as few christians live there.

 

[DorothyMae]

Okay I'll bite.
-There's nothing in the way of historical evidence of the GT has occurred.

It occurred in Jerusalem and in general in Israel at the Roman slaughter. The description of those days, exactly in length as prophesied, fulfilled that horror.

-Wars famines pestilences and so on continue unabated

There was no war during Jesus time and shortly after. It was called Pax Romana, the Roman peace.

-There is nothing remotely close to a one world worship system glorifying Jesus

Why does it have to be organized by men? But frankly speaking, where do you read that there is a one world worshipping Jesus before the gt?

-preterism is in denial of, and in fact flagrantly defies the many Scriptures that tell us to occupy until He comes, and to wait for the Son to come from heaven.

So we don’t. Sorry but we who believe the kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of our Lord do just that. The rapture team is just waiting for his return to rescue them.

 

[DorothyMae]

Show me the mark of the beast
Show me worldwide taking of the mark.
Show me the flying scorpions.
Show me the hailstones of fire.
Show me 70 ad being "tribulation such as the world NEVER WILL SEE AGAIN"

You would have to open to reading the description of that event by Josephus and realized that when Hebrews wrote things like “under his feathers” doesn’t mean they thought God belongs to the bird family.