The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Dave-L]

So why did the Protestants accept Preterism hook, line and sinker?

God sends strong delusion to siphon off the tares.

 

[Absolutely]

Let's be real: there is no way John was NOT exiled from Jerusalem around 70ad. I don't care how you slice it. Jerusalem was levelled in 70ad, and the Diaspora happened. Even if John was not killed by the Romans, he would have been killed by the Jews long before that. The Olivet Discourse specifically says you have to flee to the hills, and clearly that is what John did; or he would not still be alive. Granted, nothing says that John had to be exiled specifically by a Roman emperor, or specifically to Patmos at that time. But he WAS exiled, and likely to Patmos.

Anyway, a subject header such as "The absurdity and heresy of Preterism" is a good example if precisely what I would NOT allow in my own Revelation study.

Historicist view HINGES on history misinterpreted.
If yo ssd's squeak by the patmos thingy (which also destroys preterism) then you have history itself to completely annihilate any hope of traction.

Go ahead and tell us what you think the flying scorpions represent,the hailstones of fire and the mark that have NEVER HAPPENED mean.

What do you say they spiritually represent.

 

[Absolutely]

Further support for Irenaeus' statement is seen in some of the early enemies of Irenaeus' interpretation of Revelation. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Eusebius, to name just a few, support Irenaeus' statement of a Domitian date. They did not believe that the statement of Irenaeus was not clear and should be doubted, as many contemporary preterists desperately contend. Yet all the ancients who were on record concerning this mater accept our understanding of Irenaeus, as do modern translators. It is also not true that early date support goes back to a single individual (although there would be nothing wrong with that since the truth of a matter is often traced back to a single source), since Hegesippus’ (A.D. 150) testimony pre-dates Irenaeus.3 “The first clear, accepted, unambiguous witness to the Neronic date is a one-line subscription in the Syriac translation of the New Testament in a.d. 550,” notes Mark Hitchcock. “Only two other external witnesses to the early date exist: Arethas (c. 900) and Theophylact (d. 1107).” This is scant “evidence,” needless to say, upon which to draw such dogmatic conclusion, as is often done by many Preterists. On the other hand, Hitchcock notes that the late date “has an unbroken line of support form some of the greatest, most reliable names in church history, beginning in A.D. 150. . . . The external evidence from church history points emphatically to the a.d. 95 date for the composition of Revelation.”4 (Thomas D. Ice Liberty University)

Uh oh.
You just completely destroyed preterism.

 

[Dave-L]

Historicist view HINGES on history misinterpreted.
If yo ssd's squeak by the patmos thingy (which also destroys preterism) then you have history itself to completely annihilate any hope of traction.

Go ahead and tell us what you think the flying scorpions represent,the hailstones of fire and the mark that have NEVER HAPPENED mean.

What do you say they spiritually represent.

The oldest commentary of Revelation was based on the cycles of Revelation "recapitulating". It shows not only fulfillment in history but in the present with a hint of what to expect in the future. Hit your update button.

 

[Dino246]

God sends strong delusion to siphon off the tares.

Fallacy: circular reasoning, not to mention unbiblical.

2 Thess. 2:10b-12 those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [j]will send upon them [k]a deluding influence so that they will believe [l]what is false, 12 in order that they all may be [m]judged who did not believe the truth, but [n]took pleasure in wickedness.

It is those who did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved who are deluded. You are applying a verse discussing non-Christians to a group of Christians.

 

[Dino246]

Why aren't they relevant? That's kind of the idea of figuring someone out, by reading all of their posts, not just the ones specifically towards oneself.

... and has nothing to do with our discussion.

It's baloney because I addressed her, not you, in the first place.

She seems rather capable of communicating her views. That sort of brings the assumption that she can then defend her own views without your help and input.

I called you out on your bad attitude. You and I have not been discussing the content of her views, but one statement which you badly misread.

 

[Chester]

I do not agree with preterism, but I think we need to be careful about calling someone else's views of prophecy "heresy". My guess is that all of us will find our views of prophecy are slightly incorrect in some places.

Why can't we discuss these things openly and honestly, sharpening one another, without resorting to "heresy" accusations?

 

[Dino246]

Please provide the cite wherein locusts:

go forth and do not hurt the grass or any green thing or any tree, but only those men which do not have the seal of God in their foreheads ... the locusts don't kill, just cause people to want to die but death fled from them.

Mine was a simple question not asked in reference to 'locusts'. Have you read the book?

 

[biker]

... and has nothing to do with our discussion.


I called you out on your bad attitude. You and I have not been discussing the content of her views, but one statement which you badly misread.

Who made you the judge over these threads?

And what bad attitude is being exemplified by asking and claiming something is absurd?

Does not the very title of this thread include the word, absurd?

Is this thread a bad attitude?

Go police the thread Creator if using absurd is beyond your limits of reason!

Don't be a hypocrite, GO jump everyone using absurd or claiming beliefs like hers are wrong!

 

[Dino246]

Who made you the judge over these threads?

And what bad attitude is being exemplified by asking and claiming something is absurd?

Does not the very title of this thread include the word, absurd?

Is this thread a bad attitude?

Go police the thread Creator if using absurd is beyond your limits of reason!

Don't be a hypocrite, GO jump everyone using absurd or claiming beliefs like hers are wrong!

More insults. I leave you to your self-indulgence.

 

[biker]

BTW, are you one of the many profiles of the owner of this site?

 

[biker]

More insults. I leave you to your self-indulgence.

Insults?

Someone questions your intentions and points out your actions are not the same from poster to poster is insulting to you?

I bet it is!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Mine was a simple question not asked in reference to 'locusts'. Have you read the book?

I have not read the book. I did find a link to Josephus’ Wars of the Jews at gutenberg.org (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/2850-h/2850-h.htm).

I searched for "locust" and found one use of the word but in reading the section, it did not appear to me that it pertained to what is revealed in Rev 9.


I asked what historic writing corroborates the locusts of Rev 9 — Post #103

You replied by asking if I had read Josephus' Wars of the Jews — Post #110


So I ask again, can you provide the cite in Josephus’ Wars of the Jews which describes what Rev 9 reveals concerning locusts?


Thanks.

 

[Dino246]

I have not read the book. I did find a link to Josephus’ Wars of the Jews at gutenberg.org (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/2850-h/2850-h.htm).

I searched for "locust" and found one use of the word but in reading the section, it did not appear to me that it pertained to what is revealed in Rev 9.


I asked what historic writing corroborates the locusts of Rev 9 — Post #103

You replied by asking if I had read Josephus' Wars of the Jews — Post #110


So I ask again, can you provide the cite in Josephus’ Wars of the Jews which describes what Rev 9 reveals concerning locusts?


Thanks.

You also asked about the large army and the killing of 1/3 of mankind.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You also asked about the large army and the killing of 1/3 of mankind.

ok ... does Josephus' War of the Jews address the locusts of Rev 9? ... or are you aware of any other writing which does so?

Thanks.

 

[biker]

I have not read the book. I did find a link to Josephus’ Wars of the Jews at gutenberg.org (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/2850-h/2850-h.htm).

I searched for "locust" and found one use of the word but in reading the section, it did not appear to me that it pertained to what is revealed in Rev 9.


I asked what historic writing corroborates the locusts of Rev 9 — Post #103

You replied by asking if I had read Josephus' Wars of the Jews — Post #110


So I ask again, can you provide the cite in Josephus’ Wars of the Jews which describes what Rev 9 reveals concerning locusts?


Thanks.

Dino talks in circles. Just follow this posters pattern. Typically, that reveals their beliefs are circular logic. But they will ask you the same question 20 different ways by changing the keywords without ever offering anything themself.

Makes you wonder what they are hiding!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Dino talks in circles. Just follow this posters pattern. Typically, that reveals their beliefs are circular logic. But they will ask you the same question 20 different ways without ever offering anything themself.

Dino246 and I have had discussions before and I have not experienced what you describe here.

Hope/pray you and Dino246 can come to understanding

Psalm 133:

1 [[A Song of degrees of David.]] Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In Matt 24, when the disciples asked Jesus Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt 24:3), Jesus responded by telling them about events leading up to the beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8).

Then Jesus described events which take place after the beginning of sorrows and in Matt 24:21-22, Jesus said then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I figure the reason there will be such great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be is that satan will be loosed upon the earth ... the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him — Rev 12:9 ... and he will be very angry and knows he has only a short time ... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time — Rev 12:12.

I believe that just as we cannot fully comprehend the love of God ... its complete and utter vastness (breadth, length, depth, height), we also cannot fully comprehend the evil/hatred of the devil (and I really don't even want to understand it. I much prefer dwelling on God's love and goodness).

But having said that, it really puts into perspective the statement made by Jesus when He said there will be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And the only thing that shortens it is God stepping in for the elect's sake.

You are correct in-part. Satan being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the 7th trumpet and 3rd woe (but woe to the inhabitants of the earth). However, that is not the only reason Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation, but time also includes the rest of God's wrath beginning with the seals, the previous trumpets and the bowl judgments. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population will have been killed. And that does not include the fatalities which will result from trumpets 1, 2 & 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to the earth, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled (Dan.2:31-45, Rev.6 thru 8).

It is also when that antichrist/beast stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God, which is in the middle of the seven year period, this is when he wages war and conquers the great tribulation saints during that last 3 1/2 years. (Dan.7:25, Rev.13:5-7)


yes. I appreciate you taking the time to go through this with me. so much information and we see things unfolding before our very eyes. I know we don't (and won't) know the exact timing of everything but God does give warning if we pay attention.

1 Thessalonians 5:

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


While we don't know the exact time, we can and should be alert and vigilant (watchful) ...

This is exactly why I put so much emphasis on the RFID chip as being the technology for the mark. The church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and the mark of the beast will become mandatory during that time. We are the only generation that can point to that prophecy and know that we are close to the Lords coming to gather His church. For since we are seeing the prophecy of the mark unfolding and we must be gathered before the antichrist and his mark becomes mandatory, then how close are we to the Lord's appearing to call us up?

 

[biker]

Hope/pray you and Dino246 can come to understanding

As do I!


But this is from you:

I asked what historic writing corroborates the locusts of Rev 9 — Post #103

You replied by asking if I had read Josephus' Wars of the Jews — Post #110


So I ask again, can you provide the cite in Josephus’ Wars of the Jews which describes what Rev 9 reveals concerning locusts?

^
All of which are "direct to the point" questions.


And what you get in return is this:

You also asked about the large army and the killing of 1/3 of mankind.

^
Which does not answer your questions but rather deflects onto another subject.




If a perp in question gave us the run around like this, it would earn them a bunk and 3 squares per day, j/s!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

This is exactly why I put so much emphasis on the RFID chip as being the technology for the mark. The church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and the mark of the beast will become mandatory during that time. We are the only generation that can point to that prophecy and know that we are close to the Lords coming to gather His church. For since we are seeing the prophecy of the mark unfolding and we must be gathered before the antichrist and his mark becomes mandatory, then how close are we to the Lord's appearing to call us up?

yes ... in agreement. so close. and I am thankful for all who watch and give warning

Romans 13:

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.