Perhaps you are not wrong, "perhaps you are just misunderstood". Seems like I've seen that one somewhere else. @mailmandan
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"Not by works" - false!
- Thread starter DBurrage
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I'm afraid I don't agree with you.
I do not agree that the Bible says that those who follow Jesus are not in sin.
Rather, the Bible says that despite our best efforts we will still not be able to reach the standard of God, and that reconciliation with God is only achieved through Christ.
What I've been arguing for in this thread is that Christians have a duty to behave in a way that tries to emulate Christ, as oppose to just behaving as they wish.
I do not agree that the Bible says that those who follow Jesus are not in sin.
Rather, the Bible says that despite our best efforts we will still not be able to reach the standard of God, and that reconciliation with God is only achieved through Christ.
What I've been arguing for in this thread is that Christians have a duty to behave in a way that tries to emulate Christ, as oppose to just behaving as they wish.
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The problem I see in using Heb 10:26 is taking it out of the 1st century context. it was written specifically to the Hebrew Christians that had witnessed the powers of the apostles in healings, signs and wonders that lasted around 40 years.
The writer compares that generation to the generation that rebelled in the desert:
(Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years)
(Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come)
That generation of the 1st century were the only ones that could have returned to the temple sacrificial system and thereby "count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing".
That's why the writer states "there is no more offering for sin" and went into an extensive discussion of the Mosaic sacrificial system.
(Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?)
The writer compares that generation to the generation that rebelled in the desert:
(Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years)
(Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come)
That generation of the 1st century were the only ones that could have returned to the temple sacrificial system and thereby "count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing".
That's why the writer states "there is no more offering for sin" and went into an extensive discussion of the Mosaic sacrificial system.
(Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?)
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Aside: It is inferred that you that the affirmative on the question above ...
apostasy leads to hell ... Agreed ... apostacy is unbelief = hell
Unrepented-of intentional sin leads to apostasy .... not necessarily ... guess I need an example to disprove....
Premise1 : a man divorces his wife to marry another and remains married
Premise2 : The man still has faith/believes
Conclusion: therefore, it is possible to intentionally sin and still be a Christian (non apostate)
If you accept the above argument, then I have proved my point to you; otherwise, all divorced and remarried persons are going to hell.
Else ...you have to give scriptural evidence that "Unrepented-of intentional sin leads to apostacy"
Aside: Your scripture verses cast little light on the question at hand IMO
apostasy leads to hell ... Agreed ... apostacy is unbelief = hell
Unrepented-of intentional sin leads to apostasy .... not necessarily ... guess I need an example to disprove....
Premise1 : a man divorces his wife to marry another and remains married
Premise2 : The man still has faith/believes
Conclusion: therefore, it is possible to intentionally sin and still be a Christian (non apostate)
If you accept the above argument, then I have proved my point to you; otherwise, all divorced and remarried persons are going to hell.
Else ...you have to give scriptural evidence that "Unrepented-of intentional sin leads to apostacy"
Aside: Your scripture verses cast little light on the question at hand IMO
I knew the Lord told me to come back to this forum for a very god/good reason. Bless you for feeling inspired to write this thread.
To further support the truism displayed in the subject line of this thread, not by works- false, is to read the Book of James. You can start with chapter 2. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 2%3A14-26&version=ESV;MOUNCE
"Faith without works is dead!"
Read the whole of James.
God will tell the sincere seeker, His indwelt child, to avoid anyone who presumes to insist works have no part (no participation) in Salvation, are not of God.
Nor do those teachers respect His true word. Else, they would never seek to contradict it.
We witness those who don't believe works have a thing to do with faith when we witness the lifestyle of super rich televangelists. If they commit to any church charity it is the barest minimum.And this, after they've been on air for years! Like one pastor who asks for funds to feed hungry children in Africa. First he asked for money to afford bowls. Then he thought to show where donations were going. Sure enough, there were the red bowls millions of dollars donated had purchased. They were being dipped into watery gruel!
If we are indwelt by God, how could we ever accept any teaching that hopes to lead us to believe it, which tells us, we don't have to commit to the work of the Kingdom while we're here on earth? Love one another....but do nothing to show it? Love your enemies....but do nothing to prove it? Need a church during this "pandemic", the whole earth is church. All is of God. You are a temple carrying the Holy within. The church on earth are the whole of the faithful, faith-filled.
How can anything we do as servants of God not be in service to God. Works are a sign we are saved. Read what James, an Apostle of Emmanuel, said through inspiration of Christ, about those who do no work, and call themselves, "in Christ.".
Be blessed. And be not , not ever, led astray by false teachers.
No matter where you may find them. In the pulpit, on TV, or elsewhere in this world. .
The Book of Matthew chapter 7
Be not led astray by those who tell you God's Commands have nothing , no thing, to do with Salvation. Another false teaching. Again, watch how those who defend falsity do so. it will not be with the kindness the Gospel was given. That is because false teaching is the antithesis of the Good News from God. And therefore, cannot share the same passion and emotion, goodness, as did the Truth from God through Christ.
In our Salvation we are given a rebirth, we are no longer whom we once were. We are then able to understand Gods order of creation, and His will for us. God did not waste His breath when He gave the commandments, nor did Jesus lie when he reiterated them. Even that of Sabbath day. Though we are not to be put to death for working on Sabbath, sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday, that day of rest was created by God for us. And Emmanuel /Jesus NEVER rescinded it. He is Lord of the Sabbath, because He is our Lord that gave the Sabbath. We have our rest in Him every day, we know this. However, one day for ourselves, created for us, is our day of/with the Lord. To find respite in him, without the worldly concerns gaining our attention.
John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
To further support the truism displayed in the subject line of this thread, not by works- false, is to read the Book of James. You can start with chapter 2. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 2%3A14-26&version=ESV;MOUNCE
"Faith without works is dead!"
Read the whole of James.
God will tell the sincere seeker, His indwelt child, to avoid anyone who presumes to insist works have no part (no participation) in Salvation, are not of God.
Nor do those teachers respect His true word. Else, they would never seek to contradict it.
We witness those who don't believe works have a thing to do with faith when we witness the lifestyle of super rich televangelists. If they commit to any church charity it is the barest minimum.And this, after they've been on air for years! Like one pastor who asks for funds to feed hungry children in Africa. First he asked for money to afford bowls. Then he thought to show where donations were going. Sure enough, there were the red bowls millions of dollars donated had purchased. They were being dipped into watery gruel!
If we are indwelt by God, how could we ever accept any teaching that hopes to lead us to believe it, which tells us, we don't have to commit to the work of the Kingdom while we're here on earth? Love one another....but do nothing to show it? Love your enemies....but do nothing to prove it? Need a church during this "pandemic", the whole earth is church. All is of God. You are a temple carrying the Holy within. The church on earth are the whole of the faithful, faith-filled.
How can anything we do as servants of God not be in service to God. Works are a sign we are saved. Read what James, an Apostle of Emmanuel, said through inspiration of Christ, about those who do no work, and call themselves, "in Christ.".
Be blessed. And be not , not ever, led astray by false teachers.
No matter where you may find them. In the pulpit, on TV, or elsewhere in this world. .
The Book of Matthew chapter 7
In our Salvation we are given a rebirth, we are no longer whom we once were. We are then able to understand Gods order of creation, and His will for us. God did not waste His breath when He gave the commandments, nor did Jesus lie when he reiterated them. Even that of Sabbath day. Though we are not to be put to death for working on Sabbath, sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday, that day of rest was created by God for us. And Emmanuel /Jesus NEVER rescinded it. He is Lord of the Sabbath, because He is our Lord that gave the Sabbath. We have our rest in Him every day, we know this. However, one day for ourselves, created for us, is our day of/with the Lord. To find respite in him, without the worldly concerns gaining our attention.
John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
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