The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Apr 5, 2020
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#61
I can see that sound reasoning is not your strong point. :)



Tell me this:

Hitler, like Nero, had a certain sect of people killed. (ironically, they both committed suicide to keep from being caught or punished). During the killing of these certain sects of people, why would anyone with the use of both REASON/LOGIC, ever conclude that either 1 would allow those they have ordered to be killed...in a sense...all but a single one?

There is no reason or logic that would conclude to such an outcome.

Therefore, the use of such an outcome is created for a purpose. And this purpose is for the Preterist Argument.,
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#62
The other Preterist argument is polluted by the same assumption that underlies their previous contention about the Temple. Preterists assume that the line of kings refer to a first century succession of Roman kings and then pronounces Nero as the one to which Revelation 17:10 refers. This is just an assumption and begs the question. John is - 3 - seeing, recording, and commenting on a vision of the future. Thus, the time frame that he is referencing would be that of whatever time he was viewing the future. This cannot then be used as a proof that he was viewing a particular time frame, without having previously, in some other way, established the period of time that he views in the vision. Preterists have not previously established when such a time frame is to take place. This line of reasoning by Preterists is not an internal proof for a Neronian date for Revelation. All of the alleged proofs for an early date presuppose a preterist interpretation (this certainly has not been established) as a false stating point in which they attempt to argue from. Regardless of the interpretation of this passage, it cannot be used as a proof for when Revelation was written. This passage is providing a landscape of biblical history of those kingdoms, not individual kings, which have persecuted Israel. The five that are fallen refer to the kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes/Persia, and Greece. The sixth empire that was reigning at the time when John wrote was Rome. The seventh that is to come will be the future kingdom of the antichrist, known in Revelation as the Beast. This view is consistent with the way in which kings (i.e., kingdoms) are used throughout both Daniel and Revelation. Revelation 17:10, says that the future leader and his empire will have a short life according to the words, “when he comes, he must remain a little while.” The adjective “little” has the idea of brevity (Rev. 12:12). God is saying that He has decreed the time of this final empire will be shorter than the six previous. This factor alone would eliminate the possibility of the seven kings being first-century Roman emperors. (Thomas D. Ice Liberty University)

I have been posting some thoughtful and well presented arguments for a late 95 AD writing of Revelation. I am very interested in thoughtfull well articulated presentations of an pre 70AD writing because I know that people have strong feelings on this topic and I am interested as to how they came to their conclusions differently than what I have already presented. For example is your view based on the mention of the temple in Revelation a proof that the temple was still standing when John wrote? and if so how do you respond to the fact that there was no temple standing when Ezekiel was told to measure it in his vision? Cant John have been told to measure a temple in his vision without a temple standing like Ezekiel was told to? Why or Why not? These are the kinds of responses that would edify all readers of a thread like this. Let us learn to stop all childish and personal attacks and present our reasons for mutual edification.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#63
Hitler, like Nero, had a certain sect of people killed. (ironically, they both committed suicide to keep from being caught or punished). During the killing of these certain sects of people, why would anyone with the use of both REASON/LOGIC, ever conclude that either 1 would allow those they have ordered to be killed...in a sense...all but a single one?
Fallacy: non sequitur, and rank ignorance of history. Hitler wanted to have all the Jews killed. To that end, he imprisoned many of them but found it impractical to kill them immediately.

There is no reason or logic that would conclude to such an outcome.
Opinion, not fact. You have misread DM's statement, and instead of going back and considering how you misread it, you blunder on, digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Therefore, the use of such an outcome is created for a purpose. And this purpose is for the Preterist Argument.,
Fallacy: non sequitur.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#64
The other Preterist argument is polluted by the same assumption that underlies their previous contention about the Temple. Preterists assume that the line of kings refer to a first century succession of Roman kings and then pronounces Nero as the one to which Revelation 17:10 refers. This is just an assumption and begs the question. John is - 3 - seeing, recording, and commenting on a vision of the future. Thus, the time frame that he is referencing would be that of whatever time he was viewing the future. This cannot then be used as a proof that he was viewing a particular time frame, without having previously, in some other way, established the period of time that he views in the vision. Preterists have not previously established when such a time frame is to take place. This line of reasoning by Preterists is not an internal proof for a Neronian date for Revelation. All of the alleged proofs for an early date presuppose a preterist interpretation (this certainly has not been established) as a false stating point in which they attempt to argue from. Regardless of the interpretation of this passage, it cannot be used as a proof for when Revelation was written. This passage is providing a landscape of biblical history of those kingdoms, not individual kings, which have persecuted Israel. The five that are fallen refer to the kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes/Persia, and Greece. The sixth empire that was reigning at the time when John wrote was Rome. The seventh that is to come will be the future kingdom of the antichrist, known in Revelation as the Beast. This view is consistent with the way in which kings (i.e., kingdoms) are used throughout both Daniel and Revelation. Revelation 17:10, says that the future leader and his empire will have a short life according to the words, “when he comes, he must remain a little while.” The adjective “little” has the idea of brevity (Rev. 12:12). God is saying that He has decreed the time of this final empire will be shorter than the six previous. This factor alone would eliminate the possibility of the seven kings being first-century Roman emperors. (Thomas D. Ice Liberty University)

I have been posting some thoughtful and well presented arguments for a late 95 AD writing of Revelation. I am very interested in thoughtfull well articulated presentations of an pre 70AD writing because I know that people have strong feelings on this topic and I am interested as to how they came to their conclusions differently than what I have already presented. For example is your view based on the mention of the temple in Revelation a proof that the temple was still standing when John wrote? and if so how do you respond to the fact that there was no temple standing when Ezekiel was told to measure it in his vision? Cant John have been told to measure a temple in his vision without a temple standing like Ezekiel was told to? Why or Why not? These are the kinds of responses that would edify all readers of a thread like this. Let us learn to stop all childish and personal attacks and present our reasons for mutual edification.
Let's realize that Preterism and Dispensationalism are both lies created by the Jesuits to deceive protestants into thinking the Papacy cannot be the Antichrist.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#65
I am very interested in thoughtfull well articulated presentations of an pre 70AD writing because I know that people have strong feelings on this topic and I am interested as to how they came to their conclusions differently than what I have already presented.
Read Gary Demar's book, "Last Days Madness".
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#66
Fallacy: non sequitur, and rank ignorance of history. Hitler wanted to have all the Jews killed. To that end, he imprisoned many of them but found it impractical to kill them immediately.


Opinion, not fact. You have misread DM's statement, and instead of going back and considering how you misread it, you blunder on, digging a deeper hole for yourself.


Fallacy: non sequitur.


No, it's a FALLACY and completely absurd to ever believe while having Christians murdered that Nero would save John.

There is no more to add/remove.

It's completely irresponsible as an adult who can reason/form logic to even assume that could be a possibility.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,366
13,728
113
#67
No, it's a FALLACY and completely absurd to ever believe while having Christians murdered that Nero would save John.

There is no more to add/remove.

It's completely irresponsible as an adult who can reason/form logic to even assume that could be a possibility.
You clearly don't understand what a fallacy is, and your position is mostly bluster and hot air. There's no point in continuing until you calm down.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#68
No, it's a FALLACY and completely absurd to ever believe while having Christians murdered that Nero would save John.

There is no more to add/remove.

It's completely irresponsible as an adult who can reason/form logic to even assume that could be a possibility.
Nero was not a rational man, Christians were killed in "ad hoc" fashion, the Christians were unpopular with the Roman citizens.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#69
You clearly don't understand what a fallacy is, and your position is mostly bluster and hot air. There's no point in continuing until you calm down.


I understand better than you desire to admit. There is no logic within your argument. If you are standing up for this person due to being new, I accept that. But to remove logic from the basis of ordering Christians to be killed with one exception is irresponsible thinking. Nero was insane. There was no reasoning behind any of his actions other than hate. You do not keep alive what you hate. That's like saying Satan only tried to kill me but now he is ok because I know with God he is a just a punk. Absolutely NO LOGIC!
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#70
Nero was not a rational man, Christians were killed in "ad hoc" fashion, the Christians were unpopular with the Roman citizens.


Agreed! And why the argument for him to keep a single Apostle alive is not only irrational, but irresponsible as an adult who supposedly can think/process/reason/format logic.

The person who thinks Nero could keep one Believer alive is a person I would be interested in seeing how their own personal life exists. This is not towards you, but that person I speak typically has a personal life equal to a complete trainwreck!
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#71
I understand better than you desire to admit. There is no logic within your argument. If you are standing up for this person due to being new, I accept that. But to remove logic from the basis of ordering Christians to be killed with one exception is irresponsible thinking. Nero was insane. There was no reasoning behind any of his actions other than hate. You do not keep alive what you hate. That's like saying Satan only tried to kill me but now he is ok because I know with God he is a just a punk. Absolutely NO LOGIC!
First you make is sound like we was methodical and calculating and now he is wholly insane.

The truth is most Christians put to death under his rule were charged with arson.... he needed a scapegoat.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#72
First you make is sound like we was methodical and calculating and now he is wholly insane.

The truth is most Christians put to death under his rule were charged with arson.... he needed a scapegoat.


The insane are methodical. It's called a Psychological Disorder. Even Asperger (Autism) can be great with Mathematics but cannot relate to how to love your own mother.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#73
The insane are methodical. It's called a Psychological Disorder. Even Asperger (Autism) can be great with Mathematics but cannot relate to how to love your own mother.
Autism is not a form of insanity.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#74
In fact, insanity, Psych Disorder represents most atheist Scientists. They can see how well they are with Mathematics and Formulas but cannot see the humanity side. It's why Evolution makes sense to them.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#75
Autism is not a form of insanity.

No, it actually is borderline with it.

Common Genetic Factors Found in 5 Mental Disorders | National ...
www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/...
Scientists have long recognized that many psychiatric disorders tend to run in families, suggesting potential genetic roots. Such disorders include autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), bipolar disorder, major depression and schizophrenia.

The term Mental Disorder formats a relative sense of insanity.

Now, I do not believe all who have autism are insane. But their frustrations exemplifies the same responses and actions.

So, the root cause is the same.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#76
No, it actually is

Common Genetic Factors Found in 5 Mental Disorders | National ...
www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/...
Scientists have long recognized that many psychiatric disorders tend to run in families, suggesting potential genetic roots. Such disorders include autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), bipolar disorder, major depression and schizophrenia.
You do not need to school me on the DSM V

Insanity is not a clinical term.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#77
No, it actually is borderline with it.

Common Genetic Factors Found in 5 Mental Disorders | National ...
www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/...
Scientists have long recognized that many psychiatric disorders tend to run in families, suggesting potential genetic roots. Such disorders include autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), bipolar disorder, major depression and schizophrenia.

The term Mental Disorder formats a relative sense of insanity.

Now, I do not believe all who have autism are insane. But their frustrations exemplifies the same responses and actions.

So, the root cause is the same.

  • Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.
Reference:
mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mental-illness/basics/definition/con-20033813
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#80
I hear what you're saying, at the same time at the end of The book of Revelation Jesus says he is coming soon.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/22-12.htm

do we change the meaning of the word soon?
or its Greek equivalent?

if words in prophecy aren't used according to their standard usage, then a prophecy can mean all sorts of things.
I looked up the word taxý (translated "quickly" (KJV) or "soon" (NIV) in Scripture). Here is what I found:


5035 taxý – properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay; used of God's promptness characterizing how He has ordered all physical scenes of life to happen on His perfect timetable without unnecessary "delay" (Rev 1:1, 22:6).
[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]
HELPS Word-studies