"Not by works" - false!

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Apr 21, 2020
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We all wish to be guided by God. Maybe God is using us to guide you. Unless you are a prophet (a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God ), why do you think you are being guided? Deut. 29:29
I believe that God uses his word to guide me.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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This does not state WHY we are not on the vine. DBurrage says it because of any intentional sin. The four commentators say it's because of apostasy.
Again, you're relying on other people's interpretations to inform your own understanding of the Bible.

Throw the 'commentators' aside and study the Bible yourself, and in so doing allow God to guide you.
 
May 22, 2020
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No, I do not believe that Christians are perfect just because they follow Jesus.
Jesus does not teach us that we are perfect and sinless, he teaches us that through our faith in him we will not be judged on our sins.

I believe that if we choose to follow Christ, we have a duty to behave in a way that tries to emulate Christ.
I believe that Hebrews 10:26 is targeted at so called Christians who say they follow Christ, but who think it's acceptable to behave in any way whatsoever.
I agree with these statements though using Hebrews 10:26 does not substantiate these claims. Find one commentator that interprets Hebrews 10:26. Agreed, it is possible that you are the only one that got the interpretation correct, but it seems highly unlikely.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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"I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness [G1343] be through [/by means of] law [*no definite article ('the')]-- then Christ died in vain."

- Galatians 2:21 - https://biblehub.com/text/galatians/2-21.htm

[* Matt22:40 says "the law" with the definite article, for example]

..."by means of law" refers to any law, as I understand it (distinct from the phrase "THE law").


Okay, so that's what Paul said in Gal2:21. What did he say in the preceding verse? Verse 20:

"I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And that which I now live in the flesh, I live in faith, that OF the Son of God, the One having loved me and having given up Himself for me."



[There are verses that say, "faith IN [Him]," and other verses that say, "faith OF [Him]"... this verse ^ uses the latter]




Anyway, verse 21 is saying, "IF righteousness [*G1343] came/be by means of law, then Christ died in vain."


Strong's : "[*G1343] - From dikaios; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification -- righteousness."
Nobody here is saying that righteousness is through the law.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Again, you're relying on other people's interpretations to inform your own understanding of the Bible.

Throw the 'commentators' aside and study the Bible yourself, and in so doing allow God to guide you.
By using your logic here, there’s no need to go to church and listening to a pastor preach.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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I agree with these statements though using Hebrews 10:26 does not substantiate these claims. Find one commentator that interprets Hebrews 10:26. Agreed, it is possible that you are the only one that got the interpretation correct, but it seems highly unlikely.
What is your fixation on finding a commentator that agrees?

Read the Bible yourself and let God be the guide.
 
May 22, 2020
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Well, seems we are at an impasse. @DBurrage believes he has direct word from God as to the meaning of Hebrews 10:26.
If this be so,
..... I bow to your (God's) interpretation
Else
...... no sense going further, for if God spoke directly to me ... NO ONE COULD CHANGE MY MIND EITHER.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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No, I do not believe that Christians are perfect just because they follow Jesus.
Jesus does not teach us that we are perfect and sinless, he teaches us that through our faith in him we will not be judged on our sins.

I believe that if we choose to follow Christ, we have a duty to behave in a way that tries to emulate Christ.
I believe that Hebrews 10:26 is targeted at so called Christians who say they follow Christ, but who think it's acceptable to behave in any way whatsoever.
These " so called christians " who " claim" to follow Christ would be right to take heed , because these " so called christians " are not Christians...

Many will claim" LORD LORD did we not " and He will reply
"Go away , I never knew you "
 
Apr 21, 2020
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By using your logic here, there’s no need to go to church and listening to a pastor preach.
No, I'm saying we shouldn't rely on other people without question.

By all means listen to a pastor, but to ensure that you're not being led down a false path you should study the scripture for yourself and compare what the pastor says with what you've read in scripture.

Simply relying on somebody else to interpret scripture for you, rather than allowing God to be your guide, opens you up to all kinds of manipulation and false teaching.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Well, seems we are at an impasse. @DBurrage believes he has direct word from God as to the meaning of Hebrews 10:26.
If this be so,
..... I bow to your (God's) interpretation
Else
...... no sense going further, for if God spoke directly to me ... NO ONE COULD CHANGE MY MIND EITHER.
Nonsense.

You have a fixation on relying on 'commentators' that you've found on the internet, and believe in relying on other people's opinions to inform your own understanding of scripture.

I'm saying this is wrong, and that you should allow God to be the guide.

I'm more than happy to be shown that I'm wrong, but I would need Biblical evidence and not simply other people's opinions.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Nobody here is saying that righteousness is through the law.
Did you even read and grasp the point of my post? It doesn't seem so. ;)





I was endeavoring to address your point about the differentiation between the law of Moses and God's commandments.

Gal2:21 is not pinpointing the law of Moses... but just uses the phrase "by means of law" (with NO definite article ['the']).
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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This does not state WHY we are not on the vine. DBurrage says it because of any intentional sin. The four commentators say it's because of apostasy.
Unrepented-of intentional sin leads to apostacy leads to hell, yes?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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So these are not deliberate sins then so you don't violate Heb 10:26.
You're right. I'm not willfully rebelling against God.
That's not to say that I attain God's standard though, because I don't.
None of us do.

It's through Christ that our shortfall is bridged so that we are able to reconcile with God.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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No, you've misunderstood what I've been saying. Please read this thread.
Was not that post I quoted of yours a part of "this thread"? I thought I was comprehending the flow of your argument (and wanted to quote that particular post of yours, since it seems to agree with your Title of this thread, " 'NOT BY WORKS' - FALSE!"--which seems to imply that it IS BY MEANS OF WORKS, instead--Do you believe this, or no?).


Galatians 2:16 -

"having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law [notice: NO definite article], if not through [/by means of] the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, [in order] that we might be declared righteous by/in the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh."
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Was not that post I quoted of yours a part of "this thread"? I thought I was comprehending the flow of your argument (and wanted to quote that particular post of yours, since it seems to agree with your Title of this thread, "NOT BY WORKS, FALSE"--which seems to imply that it IS BY MEANS OF WORKS, instead--Do you believe this, or no?).


Galatians 2:16 -

"having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law [notice: NO definite article], if not through [/by means of] the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, [in order] that we might be declared righteous by/in the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh."
No, you're not comprehending the flow of the debate.
I don't blame you: this thread is very fast paced and I'm having trouble keeping up myself :)
 
Feb 29, 2020
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I learned this doctrine from the Bible:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him (1 John 3:6).

Many do not understand this.

Well:

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. (John 8:43-44)

All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given (Matthew 19:11)

All those verses that speak of stopping from sin are not sent to you if you refuse to accept them and seek other meanings.

Any true Christian who can receiving these hard sayings need to avoid those who will not receive those sayings; because:

Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (Romans 16:17-18)

You cannot stop sinning because you serve your own belly. And you have been deceived by someone serving their own belly using fair speeches and good words and you try to pass on this deceit to the simple minded.

The truth hurts.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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I learned this doctrine from the Bible:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him (1 John 3:6).

Many do not understand this.

Well:

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. (John 8:43-44)

All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given (Matthew 19:11)

All those verses that speak of stopping from sin are not sent to you if you refuse to accept them and seek other meanings.

Any true Christian who can receiving these hard sayings need to avoid those who will not receive those sayings; because:

Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (Romans 16:17-18)

You cannot stop sinning because you serve your own belly. And you have been deceived by someone serving their own belly using fair speeches and good words and you try to pass on this deceit to the simple minded.

The truth hurts.
1 John 3:6 does not imply that followers of Christ have sinless perfection.
It means that those who follow Christ are compelled to not sin.