If Scripture says God is a God of Justice then why is there so much INjustice?
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I think that's a great question.
suppose God killed everyone as soon as they were about to cause harm to someone else.
then he would have killed Adam as soon as he ate the fruit. or maybe Eve, whichever one sinned first. or maybe both of them.
would the world be a better place?
I think there a lot of us here that feel oppressed and persecuted. "I" could give you a bunch of similar thoughts as well as some rather revolting creations of my flesh as far as logic and proud and arrogant words/thoughts go, almost all of them relating to scripture out of context.
While you might feel commiseration in what you are going through, it would seem to me a pity party and I'm almost 100% that the Lord does not care for that AT ALL. Encouragement is what I pray the Lord allows me to bring you.
Let's just say I have a something of a bulletin board with things I would like understanding on, the majority of them are outside myself.
I'm going to put a GIANT ellipsis here for now
...
In the end it comes down to trust issues. Can a creation say unto the creator "what doest thou"? There's an exchange between someone in scripture along those lines, if anyone knows where it is that is said, great
Umm, while I would like to give you peace and clarity for what you are going through all I can say is I see a lot myself. I cannot say God is doing "nothing". As that is completely inaccurate. It is simply not what I would think he would do based off how I read scripture.
I feel your pain and anguish in this issue. I too resonate with the story of Job and I had a moment where I was in one of the blackest moods I had ever been in, not hatred at the Lord, but anger wanting him to just end it and just "What?!?" So I look around, what's near me as I lay on the ground....a bible. Really? That's it? Fine. *opens randomly* it ends up being Job 7. Read it if you feel so inclined.
I'm not sure about you but I go through some really long hard days feeling like my eyes are almost burned, but I have to look, I don't have a choice what is laid on my heart (I don't mean physically seeing). And then guess what? There's nothing "I" can do but pray and for what? But I pray...and then oppression comes in sleep, but I get sleep. Lately I've been finding some rest. Sleep is a gift that I've been given lately.
I too believe the Lord has plans for me. I've come to grips that a lot of the "great plans" may be unseen and I may not ever know of them. That's alright. I would like to see it play out, but when you are in the thick of battle, rarely do you get time to observe (if at all)
I am going to fall into what I feel is displeasing to the Lord if I try to meet you where you are...I go there often enough in my thoughts, but when I prostrate myself in my heart and submit, a LOT of those things lift. I too am quite tired most of the time. Weary. Is the dawn on the horizon? Soon? When is soon?
The judgement of the wicked has been impressed on me. Particularly when I was dabbling with some pretty dark stuff...I was shielded from a considerable amount of things but one thing that was VERY present was wrath. It's not far off...it's simmering to boil, I can feel it every day and it's frightening.
There's a verse in Genesis 15 (verse 16) that talks about the sin of the Amorites being not yet at its full.
Take a long look at that one. Take a long look at the Lord's response to Jonah after Nineveh repented. I believe it's Babylon whose sins are piled as high as heaven, but it is "not yet" but soon will be. It's on the horizon, THAT at least I can see. So I can only have faith that judgement and the Lord's return is just beyond that horizon.
You mentioned Joseph. How do you think he felt being imprisoned for so long for literally doing what the Lord would have him do?
He had a VERY trying time. I don't want to share my personal insights into the story but any time I get exceptionally bitter and "black"...I am pointed back to Joseph and Job. What is interesting to me is that neither of these men had miraculous works follow them. Joseph was elevated in such a way that if others were to witness it and see his life play out, they could disbelieve it was the Lord. A far cry from Moses and Paul...Job and Joseph were "normal" except the Lord worked through their circumstances.
Just be careful with where you let these thoughts go. Righteous revenge doesn't exist. Even revenging yourself against the Lord is error. I.e it's his fault mentality. It won't get you anywhere pleasant, and this type of thinking brings the enemy near in my life, and some of my tirades...
I am confident in the vengeance of the Lord. Be wary though, because he does indeed search the heart and we need to examine it daily and ask him if there be any error found within it.... work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
All these things I have done are but by his grace and mercy allowing me to be what he has called me to be.
While you might feel commiseration in what you are going through, it would seem to me a pity party and I'm almost 100% that the Lord does not care for that AT ALL. Encouragement is what I pray the Lord allows me to bring you.
Let's just say I have a something of a bulletin board with things I would like understanding on, the majority of them are outside myself.
I'm going to put a GIANT ellipsis here for now
...
In the end it comes down to trust issues. Can a creation say unto the creator "what doest thou"? There's an exchange between someone in scripture along those lines, if anyone knows where it is that is said, great
Umm, while I would like to give you peace and clarity for what you are going through all I can say is I see a lot myself. I cannot say God is doing "nothing". As that is completely inaccurate. It is simply not what I would think he would do based off how I read scripture.
I feel your pain and anguish in this issue. I too resonate with the story of Job and I had a moment where I was in one of the blackest moods I had ever been in, not hatred at the Lord, but anger wanting him to just end it and just "What?!?" So I look around, what's near me as I lay on the ground....a bible. Really? That's it? Fine. *opens randomly* it ends up being Job 7. Read it if you feel so inclined.
I'm not sure about you but I go through some really long hard days feeling like my eyes are almost burned, but I have to look, I don't have a choice what is laid on my heart (I don't mean physically seeing). And then guess what? There's nothing "I" can do but pray and for what? But I pray...and then oppression comes in sleep, but I get sleep. Lately I've been finding some rest. Sleep is a gift that I've been given lately.
I too believe the Lord has plans for me. I've come to grips that a lot of the "great plans" may be unseen and I may not ever know of them. That's alright. I would like to see it play out, but when you are in the thick of battle, rarely do you get time to observe (if at all)
I am going to fall into what I feel is displeasing to the Lord if I try to meet you where you are...I go there often enough in my thoughts, but when I prostrate myself in my heart and submit, a LOT of those things lift. I too am quite tired most of the time. Weary. Is the dawn on the horizon? Soon? When is soon?
The judgement of the wicked has been impressed on me. Particularly when I was dabbling with some pretty dark stuff...I was shielded from a considerable amount of things but one thing that was VERY present was wrath. It's not far off...it's simmering to boil, I can feel it every day and it's frightening.
There's a verse in Genesis 15 (verse 16) that talks about the sin of the Amorites being not yet at its full.
Take a long look at that one. Take a long look at the Lord's response to Jonah after Nineveh repented. I believe it's Babylon whose sins are piled as high as heaven, but it is "not yet" but soon will be. It's on the horizon, THAT at least I can see. So I can only have faith that judgement and the Lord's return is just beyond that horizon.
You mentioned Joseph. How do you think he felt being imprisoned for so long for literally doing what the Lord would have him do?
He had a VERY trying time. I don't want to share my personal insights into the story but any time I get exceptionally bitter and "black"...I am pointed back to Joseph and Job. What is interesting to me is that neither of these men had miraculous works follow them. Joseph was elevated in such a way that if others were to witness it and see his life play out, they could disbelieve it was the Lord. A far cry from Moses and Paul...Job and Joseph were "normal" except the Lord worked through their circumstances.
Just be careful with where you let these thoughts go. Righteous revenge doesn't exist. Even revenging yourself against the Lord is error. I.e it's his fault mentality. It won't get you anywhere pleasant, and this type of thinking brings the enemy near in my life, and some of my tirades...
I am confident in the vengeance of the Lord. Be wary though, because he does indeed search the heart and we need to examine it daily and ask him if there be any error found within it.... work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
All these things I have done are but by his grace and mercy allowing me to be what he has called me to be.
Well you just said a mouth full and I feel bad about it but I don't have an answer for you other then what I have already given. But I will say that even though you think God was unfair to Job and I think you would be correct and he did question God. But Job never walked away from his relationship with God and Joseph on the other hand never questioned God and continued to worship and praise God no matter what and God restored both of them to greatness. However we need to understand that God was looking at a much bigger picture then we are capable seeing with regards to Job and Joseph
The testimony I gave you was the tip of the iceberg of my life in the past. Each of us think or feel that our particular situation is worse then other folks but they are not in their shoes and we are not in theirs. Not long after I embraced Christ my life started going down hill and fast. I went from being able to keep a job and transportation to homelessness and because of lies I ended up going to jail for something I didn't do and when you get out of jail you don't have a job, a car and insurance and no money to get started again. Some lies are so fantastic that one can't defend themselves about it.
But God did at that point when I could no longer do anything for myself, God stepped in and put folks into my life who helped me get back on my feet. But I can tell you this, I spent 60 days in jail and since I knew I was not guilty I held onto God and ended up reading the whole bible while I was there. My sentence was supposed to be one year but praise God He got me out of there in just 60 days.
Bottom line is that no matter how bad it gets we should still praise God and thank him for all that He has provided for us even if we have to force ourselves to speak the words and He will show up and show out. Giving up on God should never be an option because the alternative is death and hell.
Trouble in our lives will never go away until we die but from what you are saying (and I could be wrong) it sounds like God is cleaning some folks out of your life that need to be gone because they are toxic to your relationship with Christ.
A lot of folks will tell you that God wouldn't put more on you then you can handle but that is a false quote not what scripture says. Scripture says that "We can do all things through Chris".
Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.
We are supposed to praise God in both bad times and in good times and if evil is coming after you that means that you have a very spicial God job that God has prepared for you to do in your future. Like it or not God is building your character and faith unless of course you give up. We should always be focused on Christ and not how much better someone else doing compared to us because how others are doing has nothing to do with your walk and relationship with God. That is between you and God and nobody else.
It is what it is and "what if" world doesn't count. Our job is not to reflect on what the world could have been because what could have been will never be. All we have is what we got.
You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm talking about people who commit unspeakable evil who continue living and continue their evil.
I think there a lot of us here that feel oppressed and persecuted. "I" could give you a bunch of similar thoughts as well as some rather revolting creations of my flesh as far as logic and proud and arrogant words/thoughts go, almost all of them relating to scripture out of context.
While you might feel commiseration in what you are going through, it would seem to me a pity party and I'm almost 100% that the Lord does not care for that AT ALL. Encouragement is what I pray the Lord allows me to bring you.
Let's just say I have a something of a bulletin board with things I would like understanding on, the majority of them are outside myself.
I'm going to put a GIANT ellipsis here for now
...
In the end it comes down to trust issues. Can a creation say unto the creator "what doest thou"? There's an exchange between someone in scripture along those lines, if anyone knows where it is that is said, great
Umm, while I would like to give you peace and clarity for what you are going through all I can say is I see a lot myself. I cannot say God is doing "nothing". As that is completely inaccurate. It is simply not what I would think he would do based off how I read scripture.
I feel your pain and anguish in this issue. I too resonate with the story of Job and I had a moment where I was in one of the blackest moods I had ever been in, not hatred at the Lord, but anger wanting him to just end it and just "What?!?" So I look around, what's near me as I lay on the ground....a bible. Really? That's it? Fine. *opens randomly* it ends up being Job 7. Read it if you feel so inclined.
I'm not sure about you but I go through some really long hard days feeling like my eyes are almost burned, but I have to look, I don't have a choice what is laid on my heart (I don't mean physically seeing). And then guess what? There's nothing "I" can do but pray and for what? But I pray...and then oppression comes in sleep, but I get sleep. Lately I've been finding some rest. Sleep is a gift that I've been given lately.
I too believe the Lord has plans for me. I've come to grips that a lot of the "great plans" may be unseen and I may not ever know of them. That's alright. I would like to see it play out, but when you are in the thick of battle, rarely do you get time to observe (if at all)
I am going to fall into what I feel is displeasing to the Lord if I try to meet you where you are...I go there often enough in my thoughts, but when I prostrate myself in my heart and submit, a LOT of those things lift. I too am quite tired most of the time. Weary. Is the dawn on the horizon? Soon? When is soon?
The judgement of the wicked has been impressed on me. Particularly when I was dabbling with some pretty dark stuff...I was shielded from a considerable amount of things but one thing that was VERY present was wrath. It's not far off...it's simmering to boil, I can feel it every day and it's frightening.
There's a verse in Genesis 15 (verse 16) that talks about the sin of the Amorites being not yet at its full.
Take a long look at that one. Take a long look at the Lord's response to Jonah after Nineveh repented. I believe it's Babylon whose sins are piled as high as heaven, but it is "not yet" but soon will be. It's on the horizon, THAT at least I can see. So I can only have faith that judgement and the Lord's return is just beyond that horizon.
You mentioned Joseph. How do you think he felt being imprisoned for so long for literally doing what the Lord would have him do?
He had a VERY trying time. I don't want to share my personal insights into the story but any time I get exceptionally bitter and "black"...I am pointed back to Joseph and Job. What is interesting to me is that neither of these men had miraculous works follow them. Joseph was elevated in such a way that if others were to witness it and see his life play out, they could disbelieve it was the Lord. A far cry from Moses and Paul...Job and Joseph were "normal" except the Lord worked through their circumstances.
Just be careful with where you let these thoughts go. Righteous revenge doesn't exist. Even revenging yourself against the Lord is error. I.e it's his fault mentality. It won't get you anywhere pleasant, and this type of thinking brings the enemy near in my life, and some of my tirades...
I am confident in the vengeance of the Lord. Be wary though, because he does indeed search the heart and we need to examine it daily and ask him if there be any error found within it.... work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
All these things I have done are but by his grace and mercy allowing me to be what he has called me to be.
Something interesting did happen yesterday. I happened to read that the prosecutor resigned in the wake of a lawsuit against him for sexual harassment. So God let me see one small thing. It wasn't the fall of the worst offenders though so I don't understand. Yes, it was relieving to see one of the players fall by his own corruption, but I would have much rather seen others who did direct evil fall.
So there again - I don't understand God.
I've always had a struggle with what OUR responsibility ends and GOD'S begins. I wrestled with filing a complaint against the corrupt lawyer. I gave him a bad rating online to warn others away and he knows who put it there. The owner of the firm whose son is the drug dealer turned lawyer paid reputation management to bury my bad review. My husband said it just shows that what I did bothered him.
But I guess some part of me deep down knows that people don't get away with things but it's hard when what you SEE doesn't align with what you BELIEVE.
It's a very unhappy emotional state to be in. I am struggling to find my way out and just can't seem to really get there. I'm tired of trying to live right, and be honest when no one else is - and then I'm attacked and vilified for being honest and doing right. It was something of a relief reading that the prosecutor was shamed but I think the lawyer who stole my mail should be shamed. The oldest witch who has caused so much grief should be removed.
It's just hard stepping back and letting God do whatever because God seems insane to me at times.
Your story doesn't surprise me. Due to the medical accident I was forced to go on pain medication which I kept in my purse. On the way out to WORK my car skidded on the snow - which made me angry at my husband since I hate the cold weather and have been trying to get him to move for years. A psychopathic trooper came and demanded my license and the license of a man who helped me. I went to give him my license and he saw my medication and accused me of just taking it - which I hadn't; I take it as soon as I wake up and it was later in the day. I have a PERFECT driving record and that psychopath accused me of driving under the influence. The very premise of his assertions was idiotic. I'm going to drive to WORK to do a bank audit impaired??? He was FRIGHTENING. He lied and said my voice was slurring when it was not. We hired a lawyer who turned out to be corrupt. He said you can tell by the video that my voice was NOT slurring and that I had my wits 100% about me. To make a long story short - those psychopaths kept me going to court for a full year trying to force me to admit I was driving under the influence. They forced me to court one week after major surgery. I felt like Christ being crucified. My husband held me up on one side and my son the other. The corrupt lawyer - I learned that many earned the moniker lie-yers - said he met with the judge and the judge told him I'd better admit I was driving impaired or he was going to find me guilty of a worse crime. They tried to frighten me into saying I was guilty. I got before the judge and I couldn't lie. I don't have much - my parents gave me very little to get by on but one thing that my father always told me was that he's only known 3 honest people in his lifetime - his brother John, my mother, and me. He had 5 kids.
The Holy Spirit took over and I sat there and lambasted that judge. The liar said "I'm just here to find the truth and do justice." I was ready to explode - I was in agony from the surgery and agony because they were all liars trying to find me guilty so I couldn't sue them. I won't go into the ugly detail of what the criminal troopers said but I have never met such amoral people. I reamed that judge in public. I won. But there was another time when I felt that God didn't help me.
So I know just what you mean about going to jail for something you didn't do.
State troopers stopped my daughter and sexually molested her. None got in trouble. Their molesting was caught on video and they tried altering the video but you could still see what they did. It still RIPS MY HEART OUT. Another time God did nothing. I follow these cases now and it's a MAJOR EPIDEMIC - POLICE USING THE BADGE TO COMMIT SEXUAL ASSAULT. Where was God? Why didn't He do anything to the molesters?
All our institutions have become evil. Are these the 'beginning of sorrows'? Why am I always the victim of Satan's attacks and not my friend?
There IS NO wisdom, NOR understanding, NOR council, AGAINST the Lord. Proverbs 21:30. God is beyond our feeble minds, that we should judge his actions, or to question his judgements. God has determined a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness, not right now, but on that day. Nothing is going to be left out, Even "every IDLE word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. Matthew 12: 36,37.
I keep trying to hold that before my mind but right now it's very hard when evil prevails and prevails and prevails. When weak-willed people support evildoers - even fellow Christians.
It's hard to find that inner peace when everything around you is being affected by others' evil and God remains silent. Even Job's wife said "curse God and die."
I keep trying to memorize Scripture to thwart off the enemy's attacks - which I think this is. He is peppering me with doubts about God's goodness and the validity of Scripture because none of it seems to be true. "When the wicked are cut off you will see it..." Yet I'm not SEEING it - all I'm seeing is a blur of pain - and it doesn't matter who the actors are - GOD is still at the root of it - His inaction. He has answered some of my prayers but not many.
I hear what you're saying!
I was presenting a thought experiment.
would I like to live in a world where as soon as someone harmed someone else, God killed them?
no, I wouldn't want to live in that world, I would be long dead.
so, I can't be upset at God that he doesn't kill other people when they harm others.
I disagree that it's apples and oranges, but it doesn't sound like a way of looking at things that's going to resonate with your soul.
as I see it, God very rarely intervenes in the flow of cause and effect that started when he set the universe in motion.
God created humans with free will, so there is evil in the world.
but the good news is that this world is not the end of the story!
Romans 2:6 who "will pay back to everyone according to their works:"
do you believe that God will bring about Justice in the end?
So what you're saying negates all the verses in Scripture that tell us to call on God and He'll help us.
not at all!
but that help may be in the form of the peace that is beyond understanding.
it might not be in the form of physical healing, or a miraculous end to an evil person.
consider the wonderful miraculous things that David praises God for in the Psalms.
then fast forward to the days of Nehemiah.
Israel had enemies then just like in the days when David was King.
why didn't Nehemiah just raise an army and strike down Israel's enemies like David did?
or find a son of David, since God had promised David that he would always have a son to sit on the throne over Israel?
as I see it, God deals with people differently at different times in history.
in my experience, if someone prays for a miraculous healing, they probably won't get it (though they may get a better than average recovery).
but if someone prays for things like peace and wisdom, I've never seen that prayer denied.
(but it may not happen right away.)
why does God allow death? Could it be that a lot of this is super tiny in scope in relation to eternity?
One way I've thought about it a time or two. So I just content myself (not really content but you know) that all the trials and so forth do have a purpose, the purpose though is the hard part to see. Sometimes we can see it and sometimes we can't. More often than not I don't think "know" we just need to "flow" if that makes sense.
For myself personally it gets incredibly frustrating but right now I can't even focus on it at all really which is unusual. Yes knowing where YOU end and the LORD begins is difficult.
Like at what point is it in the Lord's hands and you are operating outside his will, etc. This was a year or so long quest for me to figure out and I sort of gave up on some level. I am hoping that he directs me because I'm tired of figuring it out, that doesn't mean I won't still try, but I'm not looking as hard. It seems when we are less obstinate in our own will, things can sometimes get a little easier. Not that our heart isn't to do his will or anything, but looking "too" hard is exhausting. Lately I've been putting my mind/heart toward the verse about his yoke being easy and his burden light. Mt 11:28-30.
One way I've thought about it a time or two. So I just content myself (not really content but you know) that all the trials and so forth do have a purpose, the purpose though is the hard part to see. Sometimes we can see it and sometimes we can't. More often than not I don't think "know" we just need to "flow" if that makes sense.
For myself personally it gets incredibly frustrating but right now I can't even focus on it at all really which is unusual. Yes knowing where YOU end and the LORD begins is difficult.
Like at what point is it in the Lord's hands and you are operating outside his will, etc. This was a year or so long quest for me to figure out and I sort of gave up on some level. I am hoping that he directs me because I'm tired of figuring it out, that doesn't mean I won't still try, but I'm not looking as hard. It seems when we are less obstinate in our own will, things can sometimes get a little easier. Not that our heart isn't to do his will or anything, but looking "too" hard is exhausting. Lately I've been putting my mind/heart toward the verse about his yoke being easy and his burden light. Mt 11:28-30.
I look at it like this. What was our we gave up by listening to a lie. So Satan is the god of this world. Christ said if this was my kingdom my servants would fight. THIS is what its like when GOD is not fully in control. We can understand why some then say.. if God is in control He really has things messed up. Yet.. everyone will have a free loving choice. So many are blind.. Christ said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see? Your sin remains. Praise GOD read the end of book. YEAH! AWESOME Praises you Father.. as the song playing now .. THE GOD WHO STAYS! Matthew West... LOVE YOU FATHER>
I have not found anyone that can really answer the question without making pathetic excuses for God. When the lawyer told me that there is no God - when I drew him out I learned that he had to listen to sickening details of people who had been sexually abused by priests as children.
So you would tell him: your victims won't have been protected by God...but they'll get a peace if they pray for it. Obviously the people had no peace as they were seeking monetary damages.
I've found that those with pat answers - I'm not trying to be rude, just honest - are those who have never had their flesh raked over a pointy bed of nails and come away with jagged, bleeding flesh, with every one of your nerves on fire. Yes - I was once of that breed - I had pat answers for everything.
It's easy to have faith when you aren't in the crucible of suffering. It's easy to make excuses for a lax God when all is well: you're fed, the mortgage is paid, there's food on the table, and you have a warm bed to sleep in. But it's quite a different matter when really, really bad things have happened and God sits there and says and does nothing. It is those times that Job's wife was driven to say "Curse God and die!"
I'm still struggling with trying to figure out when it is our responsibility to act and when it's our responsibility to step back and let God act. It's very hard to figure out and God hasn't seen fit to tell me that either.
I think i'm under spiritual attack at some level but still I wrestle with a God who doesn't act.