"Not by works" - false!

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Oct 25, 2018
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#61
You've responded to my question with a question, so let's do this fairly...

I asked first, so after you answer my question I will answer yours:

Are you saying that Christians do not need to keep God's commandments?
The Law was more than just the Decalogue. The Christ fulfilled the Law, but He did not abolish the Decalogue. The moral law is just as pertinent today as it was before the Christ came in the flesh.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#62
Don't talk to me about being unwilling to answer questions.
I literally asked you over 10 times whether you think Christians should keep God's commandments and you still haven't provided an answer.

At least we now know why you haven't given an answer: because you don't know the difference between God's eternal commandments and Mosaic law.

Am I going to sit here and type out every one of God's commandments for you.
No!
In a discussion it is fair and reasonable to request someone define their terms, that way I know I am responding to your actual question based on what you mean and not what I perceive it to be.

Capisci?
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#63
Please tell me exactly how, with relevant evidence.

I think the problem is that you're confusing keeping God's commandments with being under Mosaic law.
Are you free to have an idol to serve?
Are you free to take His name in vain?
Are you free to steal from your neighbor?
Are you free to sleep with your neighbor‘s spouse?

Obviously the answer in “no”. Why? The moral law is still in effect.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#64
Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate],

Four commentaries (portions of which I list below) all state the "deliberately sinning" refers to the sin of APOSTASY.
noun: apostasy; plural noun: apostasies ... the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

I believe the verse is being used in such a way as to define "sinning" as ANY SIN. This is not the case in the eyes of these four commentators.

Four Commentaries
Constable


The writer turned from positive admonition to negative warning, in order to highlight the seriousness of departing from the Lord.

"Between the imperatives of vv. 22-25 and 32, 35, the author describes, more fully than in 2:2f.; 6:4-6, the nature and consequences of apostasy, previously described as 'falling away from the living God' (3:12)."

10:26-27 "The word 'we' cannot refer to any other group of people than his readers and himself [cf. 2:1]."

Willful sin in the context of Hebrews is deliberate apostasy, turning away from God (2:1; 3:12; 6:4-8; 10:23).

"The faulty translation 'keep on sinning' misses the point altogether. The context suggests that the author is thinking of a particular sin rather than a lifestyle in which one continues to sin."

If an apostate rejects Jesus Christ's sacrifice, there is nothing else that can protect him or her from God's judgment (cf. 6:6; Num. 15:30-31). Some interpreters believe that this is only a hypothetical possibility for a genuine Christian.[ Others believe that only professing, not genuine, Christians are in view. Still others believe that "this sin could only be committed in the first century when the temple was still standing, and only by an unsaved Jew or proselyte to Judaism." However, what the writer said in all of the warning passages in Hebrews makes it clear that genuine Christians can apostatize.



Henry
Having mentioned these means of establishment, the apostle proceeds, in the close of the chapter, to enforce his exhortations to perseverance, and against apostasy, by many very weighty considerations, Hebrews 10:26,27, &c.

1. From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour,--despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier,--and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: the apostle seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Numbers 15:30,31. They were to be cut off.


Darby
Hebrews 10:26; which is founded, moreover, on the doctrine of these two chapters (9 and 10), with regard to the sacrifice. He insists on perseverance in a full confession of Christ, for His one sacrifice once offered was the only one. If any who had professed to know its value abandoned it, there was no other sacrifice to which he could have recourse, neither could it be ever repeated. There remained no more sacrifice for sin. All sins were pardoned by the efficacy of this sacrifice: but if, after having known the truth, they were to choose sin instead, there was no other sacrifice by virtue even of the perfection of that of Christ. Nothing but judgment remained. Such a professor, having had the knowledge of the truth and having abandoned it, would assume the character of an adversary.

The case, then, here supposed is the renunciation of the confession of Christ, deliberately preferring-after having known the truth-to walk according to one’s own will in sin. This is evident, both from that which precedes and from verse 29.

Calvin
And that the Apostle here refers only to apostates, is clear from the whole passage; for what he treats of is this, that those who had been once received into the Church ought not to forsake it, as some were wont to do. He now declares that there remained for such no sacrifice for sin, because they had willfully sinned after having received the knowledge of the truth. But as to sinners who fall in any other way, Christ offers himself daily to them, so that they are to seek no other sacrifice for expiating their sins. He denies, then, that any sacrifice remains for them who renounce the death of Christ, which is not done by any offense except by a total renunciation of the faith.

I disagree wholeheartedly, as this would imply that Christians could behave as they please as long as they believe in Jesus.

Your sources, if you read them properly do not say that it is only apostasy.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#65
In a discussion it is fair and reasonable to request someone define their terms, that way I know I am responding to your actual question based on what you mean and not what I perceive it to be.

Capisci?
Yes but I am not compelled to teach you the fundamentals of the Bible, which you should already know.

Go and do your research, then come back and answer the question that I must now have asked you 12 times:
Do Christians have a duty to keep God's commandments?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#66
The Law was more than just the Decalogue. The Christ fulfilled the Law, but He did not abolish the Decalogue. The moral law is just as pertinent today as it was before the Christ came in the flesh.
Thank you :)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#67
Yes but I am not compelled to teach you the fundamentals of the Bible, which you should already know.

Go and do your research, then come back and answer the question that I must now have asked you 12 times:
Do Christians have a duty to keep God's commandments?
Well by the very title of your OP I would state you are lacking fundamentals of the Gospels ... you deny all sins were dealt with at the cross not directly but indirectly by stating we must obey the law to stay saved.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#68
Well by the very title of your OP I would state you are lacking fundamentals of the Gospels ... you deny all sins were dealt with at the cross not directly but indirectly by stating we must obey the law to stay saved.
So you're saying that Christians cannot sin?

You're going round in circles and are beginning to bore me.
Where did I say that we must obey the law to be saved?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#69
Are you free to have an idol to serve?
Are you free to take His name in vain?
Are you free to steal from your neighbor?
Are you free to sleep with your neighbor‘s spouse?

Obviously the answer in “no”. Why? The moral law is still in effect.
Jesus fulfilled the moral law as well and the law is one unit.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#70
Yes, I agree.

Those verses imply that we are no longer under Mosaic law, which we are not.

Do you know the difference between God's commandments and Mosaic law?
Yes.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#72
2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves".


I would like to contend that the notion that salvation is given to us ONLY in return for believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior is INCOMPLETE.


We ARE asked to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation:
Acts 16:30-31
" "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" ".


HOWEVER, Jesus repeatedly told people to stop sinning, and we are warned that if we deliberately/knowingly continue in sin following the acceptance of Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will NOT cover these sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

This of course makes sense.
If we SAY we follow Jesus but continue rebelling against God, then are we REALLY following Jesus?
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter".


So then, we must accept Jesus into our lives and believe in him.
AND we must also stop rebelling against God, even after we have accepted Jesus into our lives.


What I have said may be obvious to many, but all the time I hear excuses from Christians to justify their sinning:
"Nobody is perfect" - nobody has said that you are
"God will forgive me" - actually, according to Matt 7:21, if you continue to sin after accepting Jesus, Jesus' sacrifice won't cover your sin (verse above)
"We're human, and humans are fallible" - typical excuse!
"It is impossible not to sin, as we are not perfect" - this article sums it up very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/go-and-sin-no-more.html
Have you heard these kind of excuses too?


Christians have no excuses for deliberately/knowingly sinning:
1 John 1:6
"If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions".
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many do not understand for they will not give up the flesh.

If they sin they should not have an excuse, but say they wanted to sin and enjoy it, and have the right attitude that we cannot hold unto sin, which some hold unto sin and believe they still have salvation.

Some have a form of godliness, but deny the Spirit leading them, and ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, which they hold unto sin and believe they still have salvation.

And have an excuse that they are not perfect, and cannot abstain from sin, although the Bible says if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sins.

These are the people that cannot dwell with Jesus for they were workers of iniquity, and He never knew them, for they would not let go of the flesh.

And there are millions of them out there that hold unto sin, and believe they have salvation, enjoying the world like the world enjoys it.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Everyone that names the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity, and that is how they are sealed, and led by the Spirit.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

Charity is love in action, works, and without charity there is no faith in our life.

For faith is having the right perspective of the kingdom of God, and His ways.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James points out if a person does not have charity then their faith is dead.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul said if he did not have charity he is nothing, and if people do not have charity they have erred from the faith.

The love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which a saint that belongs to the kingdom of God that is love should care about people more than their wants.

So Paul and James say the same thing.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said without charity the love of God does not dwell in them, and let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth, which is charity, love in action, works.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James states a person is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Which Paul, and John agree to it.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#73
So you're saying that Christians can behave as they like?
I have nothing more to add to this conversation, I prefer the Not by Works Thread far better the OP there defends the truth.
 
May 22, 2020
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#76
I disagree wholeheartedly, as this would imply that Christians could behave as they please as long as they believe in Jesus.
Hebrews 10:26 only states that the sacrifice no longer remains for apostates (people that have heard the gospel and said they believe and then fall) . There is not other implication regards to any other sin. You, IMO, believe the verse is about all sin and extrapolate your doctrine from there; the four commentators disagree with you.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#77
2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves".


I would like to contend that the notion that salvation is given to us ONLY in return for believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior is INCOMPLETE.


We ARE asked to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation:
Acts 16:30-31
" "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" ".


HOWEVER, Jesus repeatedly told people to stop sinning, and we are warned that if we deliberately/knowingly continue in sin following the acceptance of Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will NOT cover these sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

This of course makes sense.
If we SAY we follow Jesus but continue rebelling against God, then are we REALLY following Jesus?
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter".


So then, we must accept Jesus into our lives and believe in him.
AND we must also stop rebelling against God, even after we have accepted Jesus into our lives.


What I have said may be obvious to many, but all the time I hear excuses from Christians to justify their sinning:
"Nobody is perfect" - nobody has said that you are
"God will forgive me" - actually, according to Matt 7:21, if you continue to sin after accepting Jesus, Jesus' sacrifice won't cover your sin (verse above)
"We're human, and humans are fallible" - typical excuse!
"It is impossible not to sin, as we are not perfect" - this article sums it up very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/go-and-sin-no-more.html
Have you heard these kind of excuses too?


Christians have no excuses for deliberately/knowingly sinning:
1 John 1:6
"If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions".

Have you stopped sinning yet?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#78
Hebrews 10:26 only states that the sacrifice no longer remains for apostates (people that have heard the gospel and said they believe and then fall) . There is not other implication regards to any other sin. You, IMO, believe the verse is about all sin and extrapolate your doctrine from there; the four commentators disagree with you.
If you wish to rely on other's interpretation of scripture to inform your own understanding, that's your choice.

But I put it to you that there is no Biblical justification for relying on somebody else's interpretation as representing the truth.
As an aside, Catholics do this with the pope.

My approach is to open myself up and allow God to speak to me directly by doing the hard work and going through the Bible for myself.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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#80
If you wish to rely on other's interpretation of scripture to inform your own understanding, that's your choice.

But I put it to you that there is no Biblical justification for relying on somebody else's interpretation as representing the truth.
As an aside, Catholics do this with the pope.

My approach is to open myself up and allow God to speak to me directly by doing the hard work and going through the Bible for myself.
and how many times have you read through the Bible??