debts vs. trespass?

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mlssufan01

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#1
Feb 9, 2014
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#1
I recently heard a sermon where the pastor used the phrases "trespass" in regards to the Lord's Prayer.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive those who trespass against us."
But I have always seen this passage as debts...but really, more about sin.
The pastor made it seem more about personal boundaries, rather than making it about forgiveness of those who sin against us. Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#2
Jul 2, 2011
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#2
Debts and trespasses are synonymous with sin.
 
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mlssufan01

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#3
Feb 9, 2014
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#3
not necessarily...sometimes one can trespass and it not be sin...such as when Jesus went with the disciples to Samaria; an area the disciples wanted nothing to do with--Jesus was, in a sense, trespassing into their hearts and trespassing the imagined boundary between the two groups; but I would assume in the purpose of mending and loving.
But generally speaking, in regards to entering your neighbor's property, I kinda get it.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#4
Jul 2, 2011
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#4
Why are you deflecting from the meaning in the Lord-s Prayer.? I was responding to the op.
 
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mlssufan01

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#5
Feb 9, 2014
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#5
i just don't see how sin and trespass are synonymous. if we say forgive our trespass it seemed like he was saying that by trespassing we are violating a personal boundary....but a personal boundary may or may not be a good boundary. For example...if a wife says she needs a 5 year break from her husband and will be back in 5 years...and they have children...this would be a sinful boundary...and the husband would be right to trespass the boundary, and I don't think the husband would be the one sinning in the case...but rather the woman who set the boundary would be sinning.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#6
Jul 2, 2011
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Sin is to break the law, pure and simple. To trespass a law is synonymous. It always has been.

There are nuances of difference in almost all synonyms, however one of the well known definitions of trespassing is an infraction of any law, stature, commandment or regulation.

Now, we are here to discuss the Word, and the question you ask in the OP is the use of debts and trespasses for sin...…….they are interchangeable.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#7
Jun 30, 2015
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#7
mlssufan01 said:
I recently heard a sermon where the pastor used the phrases "trespass" in regards to the Lord's Prayer.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive those who trespass against us."
But I have always seen this passage as debts...but really, more about sin.
The pastor made it seem more about personal boundaries, rather than making it about forgiveness of those who sin against us. Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.
Click to expand...
Don't blame the pastor. The KJV has the word, "trespasses" in Matthew 6:14-15, right after using "debts" in the 'Lord's prayer'. It's both an issue of translation and the prior understanding of the words that you are bringing. I suggest you do some word studies on the subject. :)
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

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#8
Dec 20, 2017
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#8
Essentially the same thing. I still always say trespasses because that's how I learned the prayer as a child.
Nothing to be overly concerned about.
 
S

sushiseggrolls

Member
#9
May 21, 2020
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#9
mlssufan01 said:
i just don't see how sin and trespass are synonymous. if we say forgive our trespass it seemed like he was saying that by trespassing we are violating a personal boundary....but a personal boundary may or may not be a good boundary. For example...if a wife says she needs a 5 year break from her husband and will be back in 5 years...and they have children...this would be a sinful boundary...and the husband would be right to trespass the boundary, and I don't think the husband would be the one sinning in the case...but rather the woman who set the boundary would be sinning.
Click to expand...
In this context, it is sin! It's just the second definition of the noun form of the oxford dictionary, so it's less common.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#10
Jul 2, 2011
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#10
sushiseggrolls said:
In this context, it is sin! It's just the second definition of the noun form of the oxford dictionary, so it's less common.
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Perhaps if one studies the etymology of the word, trespass, he will learn the definitions and usage of the word over time.

When trespassing a law, statute or commandment of God, it amounts to sin.
 
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Prycejosh1987

Well-known member
#11
Jul 19, 2020
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#11
mlssufan01 said:
I recently heard a sermon where the pastor used the phrases "trespass" in regards to the Lord's Prayer.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive those who trespass against us."
But I have always seen this passage as debts...but really, more about sin.
The pastor made it seem more about personal boundaries, rather than making it about forgiveness of those who sin against us. Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but it depends on translation, some say debts, others say trespass, others say sins. They particularly say the same thing, well at least it is intended that way. The point is forgive others so God can forgive you.
 
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lenna

Guest
#12
#12
to trespass, means to go against while sin is 'missing the mark'

in a sense you can use them at times in place of another

does it suit you better to use the word sin? does that help your understanding?

nothing to split hairs over IMO

but you should also remember that sometimes the meanings of words change over the years and the KJ does use trespass

trespass:
ARCHAIC•LITERARY
commit an offense against (a person or a set of rules).

sin: an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
 
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lenna

Guest
#13
#13
Prycejosh1987 said:
Agreed, but it depends on translation, some say debts, others say trespass, others say sins. They particularly say the same thing, well at least it is intended that way. The point is forgive others so God can forgive you.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^that
 
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