CESSATIONISM AND HEALING

[EleventhHour]

You mean to say God doesn't heal anyone?

No I did not state that at all... if the atonement also covers disease why do believers have disease shouldn't they be immune from disease?

Just like all our sins have been atoned for and God sees our sin not more... than all physical ailments should be gone as well?

 

[Sudakar]

No I did not state that at all... if the atonement also covers disease why do believers have disease shouldn't they be immune from disease?

Just like all our sins have been atoned for and God sees our sin not more... than all physical ailments should be gone as well?

If God heals, then ageing should not be an issue.

Christians don't get healed because many deny healing in the atonement. Many weren't healed in Nazareth due to unbelief.

Sins are atoned doesn't mean christians don't sin.

 

[EleventhHour]

If God heals, then ageing should not be an issue.

Okay I get the rest, however .. no one dies of old age.. everyone dies of some disease eventually so then are you saying that with faith a person could potentially always be healed from disease.

 

[miknik5]

Aging is not disease or sickness.
None of the apostles died of disease.
He bore our sin sickness and sorrow on the cross.

I have never seen any prayer in the nt or in my experience where old age was to be prayed against.
Nor did Jesus ever pray against old age,or mortality.
The argument that "well,if sickness is defeated, nobody would die,"is ridiculous.

Immortality comes after death. Death is a doorway,not some dilemma against the work of the cross.(healing)

Aging leads to a weakened internal state...a compromised immunity system, which can lead to becoming sick...

Should we then forget this christian, or state that this christian has no belief in CHRIST´S atonement and lay MORE suffering on them?

 

[azamzimtoti]

Christians don't get healed because many deny healing in the atonement. Many weren't healed in Nazareth due to unbelief..

If you want to quibble here, then it could be argued that they couldn't be healed because he has not been "stricken" yet, now can they be healed by his stripes before he was striped?

This is how illogical and un-biblical is your understanding.-

 

[azamzimtoti]

Christians don't get healed because many deny healing in the atonement..

I'd been a Christian for years before I even came across this phony "many denying healing in the atonement" so I come I got sick?

 

[miknik5]

Thank GOD David didn´t behave this way towards Jonathon´s son....

 

[Blain]

Just going to deal with this, because it is a perfect example of 2 things:

1. Why we need to read every word of the Bible, not just a chapter or passage!

2. Why you need to know hermeneutics, or how to interpret the Bible. You obviously don't know that:

Hermeneutics= Bible interpretation

Every line from the Bible you have quoted and then interpreted & explained, is hermeneutics.

In this case, you actually made some progress away from your faulty eisegesis and bad interpretations. You stopped quoting one proof text, and said to read the whole chapter! Bravo!

However, you really do need to read all of Isaiah to find out what it is about. From chapter 1, it is the prophet Isaiah calling to the people, to tell them how sinful they are. Isaiah 1 describes this from Start to finish.

"Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy Oneof Israel
and turned their backs on him." Isa. 1:4

God uses Isaiah to tell the nation of Israel that they are an evil, disobedient and wretched people. Isaiah tries to warn Israel, and point them back to righteousness and serving God. And Isaiah is Not exempt from this.

"Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.” Isaiah 6:5-7

Isaiah realizes he is also sinful, and the seraphim cleanses him with a burning coal. Every single chapter of Isaiah, and for that matter, all the prophets, is a warning about sin. Even if a chapter doesn't use those words, it is the theme and central binding idea of the book.

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy describing how Jesus will suffer in our place.

"5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed." Isaiah 53:5.

This famous proof text of Word Faith people is about what?? About how our rebellious deeds and sins made Jesus take our punishment on the cross, to heal our sin sickness, the topic of all of Isaiah.

This chapter is NOT about us! It is not about perfect healing when you pump up your faith enough, that a puny God is forced to do your bidding and answer your prayer for healing!

Instead, it is about a sovereign God who was whipped and died on the cross to take our place so we might have eternal life.

It really is heinous to take the obvious meaning which is found in all of Isaiah, and all the Bible, and take a couple verses and claim it is about healing. Well, it is about healing our sins, which have broken and damaged us.

Finally this is the second last verse of Isaiah 53, where the purpose of the chapter, the book of Isaiah and the Bible explain it.

"Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.
“My servant will acquit many,
for he carried their sins." Isa 53:11

Once again it is about how Jesus acquitted us of our sins! Nothing to do with physical healing, but spiritual healing for our many sins.

I challenge you to read the whole Bible, so you can find out that you have been led astray! Certainly read all of Isaiah and see what it is about. You will quickly find it is not about physical healing, but healing from our sins, through Jesus' coming sacrifice on the cross.

And since you are using bad hermeneutics, find out how to do it correctly, instead of the mess you make of the Bible.

Don't bother sending me another one of those Y/M answers. I know the Bible much better than you, studied Word Faith starting in the 1980's, and totally rejected it as a false and damaging doctrine. You don't even read Greek or Hebrew, there is nothing you can do to convince me to go back to a heresy I rejected 30 years ago!

Christ's atonement is central to christian life. Denying it isn't christian.[/QUOTE] Buddy this is a debate in which you are out of league/ out of anyone in this entire forum Angela is the one person who I believe understands scriptures, not to say she is perfect in it or better at it than everyone else but if I was to gain understanding of anything in the bible I would be going to her first.

She is a very well known and respected member of this site and for very good reason, you cannot even take me on in debates and compared to her I am a child in understanding the scriptures so trust me you do not want to take this on. If she was able to be online more often you would see why I hold her so highly in understanding and why I specifically said how unwise it would be to take her on.

From all I have seen in your so called understanding is that you spout your own views and refuse to even answer anything said to you, you are evasive and accusing judgmental and for reasons I can never understanding or fathom you really hold such arrogance and self image.
At the very least you are persistent in stirring the pot and getting people to talk about the subjects you start but aside from that you lack understanding you slither away and are evasive from anything said asked or rebuked of you and you dodge confrontation you show no fruits of the spirit and to be honest remind me very much of a snake.

Honestly it takes a lot to offend me and make me angry but I have been very patient with you while you spew your insults and accusations and false claims about everyone here in this forumand there are certain people here who I hold very dear to my heart and when you made false slander about magenta it took everything I had to restrain myself from letting loose on you and now you have the nerve to think you can hold your own and slander Angela's name when you cannot even take me on in debates?

 

[Absolutely]

Aging leads to a weakened internal state...a compromised immunity system, which can lead to becoming sick...

Should we then forget this christian, or state that this christian has no belief in CHRIST´S atonement and lay MORE suffering on them?

Many old people die that are not sick.
Under your reasoning ,(not totally sure) it is as if the only way you think we will die is of some infirmity?

It appears as if any affirmation towards healing as Gods will is off the table?

 

[Absolutely]

You do realize no one dies of old age... people die of disease in their old age.
The healing against disease means that the cells in the body would be eternally able to fight off disease ... that is not reality.

No.the heart can shut down in old age.
The heart just wears out.
No disease. Just a worn out heart.

 

[EleventhHour]

No.the heart can shut down in old age.
The heart just wears out.
No disease. Just a worn out heart.

The heart is created to beat that is what it does... it is stops it not due to old age it due to cardiovascular disease

 

[Absolutely]

No I did not state that at all... if the atonement also covers disease why do believers have disease shouldn't they be immune from disease?

Just like all our sins have been atoned for and God sees our sin not more... than all physical ailments should be gone as well?

It is a fact,not something we reason out of the bible, that healing is part of the new covenant.

We all know salvation through Jesus is also part of the NT.
But nobody says "if that is true why isn't everyone saved"?

Because some do not experience healing, does not mean healing is not part of the NT.
Because some are, does not mean others are not due to it not being Gods will or the fact healing is part of the NT.

Just like there can be reasons why people are sick,there are reasons why people are not getting healed.

 

[Absolutely]

The heart is created to beat that is what it does... it is stops it not due to old age it due to cardiovascular disease

my point is,there does not have to be a "disease" for an old person to die.
There is no way a 90 year old person has the same strength(in their heart) as a 20 year old

 

[Absolutely]

Example :
A 500 lb fat man may have zero wrong with his heart,but under exertion die from his heart strangled and bogged down from all the fat.

No "disease"....just ate himself to death.

 

[EleventhHour]

my point is,there does not have to be a "disease" for an old person to die.
There is no way a 90 year old person has the same strength(in their heart) as a 20 year old

Then the heart is diseased ...lol

 

[EleventhHour]

Example :
A 500 lb fat man may have zero wrong with his heart,but under exertion die from his heart strangled and bogged down from all the fat.

No "disease"....just ate himself to death.

Obesity leads to disease. A disease just means something has gone wrong with your body. Everyone dies of something going wrong.. that is why it is technically wrong to state we die of old age.

 

[Sudakar]

Okay I get the rest, however .. no one dies of old age.. everyone dies of some disease eventually so then are you saying that with faith a person could potentially always be healed from disease.

Again the question comes back which is, in that case God need not heal anyone either at lower ages or in old age.

 

[Sudakar]

Christ's atonement is central to christian life. Denying it isn't christian.

Buddy this is a debate in which you are out of league/ out of anyone in this entire forum Angela is the one person who I believe understands scriptures, not to say she is perfect in it or better at it than everyone else but if I was to gain understanding of anything in the bible I would be going to her first.

She is a very well known and respected member of this site and for very good reason, you cannot even take me on in debates and compared to her I am a child in understanding the scriptures so trust me you do not want to take this on. If she was able to be online more often you would see why I hold her so highly in understanding and why I specifically said how unwise it would be to take her on.

From all I have seen in your so called understanding is that you spout your own views and refuse to even answer anything said to you, you are evasive and accusing judgmental and for reasons I can never understanding or fathom you really hold such arrogance and self image.
At the very least you are persistent in stirring the pot and getting people to talk about the subjects you start but aside from that you lack understanding you slither away and are evasive from anything said asked or rebuked of you and you dodge confrontation you show no fruits of the spirit and to be honest remind me very much of a snake.

Honestly it takes a lot to offend me and make me angry but I have been very patient with you while you spew your insults and accusations and false claims about everyone here in this forumand there are certain people here who I hold very dear to my heart and when you made false slander about magenta it took everything I had to restrain myself from letting loose on you and now you have the nerve to think you can hold your own and slander Angela's name when you cannot even take me on in debates?[/QUOTE]
I like to hear about Christ not angela...

 

[Sudakar]

I'd been a Christian for years before I even came across this phony "many denying healing in the atonement" so I come I got sick?

Luke 18: 8: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

 

[Sudakar]

If you want to quibble here, then it could be argued that they couldn't be healed because he has not been "stricken" yet, now can they be healed by his stripes before he was striped?

This is how illogical and un-biblical is your understanding.-

Your quibbling mind has evaded the question as to why many weren't healed at Nazareth due to unbelief. What did they believe?