Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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Here's the situation as I understand it:
Our brother Jackson says that Muslims cannot be worshiping the same God as Christians because Muslims do not accept the trinity or agree that Jesus is God.
I've been using Romans 10:2 to try to show that this view also causes a problem for how Paul talks about the Jews. Jackson often uses the King James, so I've been using that for now.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Here, Paul is clearly saying that Jews have a zeal of God. the translator believes it is referring to the true God, because he capitalizes the word "God".
Jackson brought up the objection that the Jews of today are different than the Jews that were alive when Paul wrote the book of Romans.
This makes it slightly more complicated to talk about, but doesn't actually change the logic at all.
As a group, the Jews alive at the time when Paul wrote the book of Romans did not accept either the Trinity or agree that Jesus is God.
Yet Paul is clearly saying that they have a zeal of the true God.
So as I see it, and I mean this as gently as possible, our brother Jackson is currently looking for a way around this issue.
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I also want to add that to me it's not really a big deal whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God or not. I don't by any means think that Muslims have very much correct information about God!
However, our brother Jackson takes it a step further. He says that anyone who thinks that Muslims and Christians worship the same God cannot be a Christian. He also says that anyone who says that Jews and Christians today worship the same God cannot be a Christian.
Imo, this unnecessarily excludes a great many people that I am confident are Christians and part of the body of Christ!
Our brother Jackson says that Muslims cannot be worshiping the same God as Christians because Muslims do not accept the trinity or agree that Jesus is God.
I've been using Romans 10:2 to try to show that this view also causes a problem for how Paul talks about the Jews. Jackson often uses the King James, so I've been using that for now.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Here, Paul is clearly saying that Jews have a zeal of God. the translator believes it is referring to the true God, because he capitalizes the word "God".
Jackson brought up the objection that the Jews of today are different than the Jews that were alive when Paul wrote the book of Romans.
This makes it slightly more complicated to talk about, but doesn't actually change the logic at all.
As a group, the Jews alive at the time when Paul wrote the book of Romans did not accept either the Trinity or agree that Jesus is God.
Yet Paul is clearly saying that they have a zeal of the true God.
So as I see it, and I mean this as gently as possible, our brother Jackson is currently looking for a way around this issue.
********
I also want to add that to me it's not really a big deal whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God or not. I don't by any means think that Muslims have very much correct information about God!
However, our brother Jackson takes it a step further. He says that anyone who thinks that Muslims and Christians worship the same God cannot be a Christian. He also says that anyone who says that Jews and Christians today worship the same God cannot be a Christian.
Imo, this unnecessarily excludes a great many people that I am confident are Christians and part of the body of Christ!
I'm not Catholic either.
As I understand it, one of the main tenets of Catholicism is that when the apostles and elders of the church (or their successors) all get together, their decisions are guaranteed by the holy Spirit.
This is based on Acts chapter 15.
Eastern Orthodox Christians believe this process continued as long as the entire church was joined, which ended in 1054, I think. Catholics believe this process has never stopped.
The most recent council is Vatican II, which produced several documents, including the lumen gentium. CCC 841 is basically quoting the lumen gentium.
As I understand it, one of the main tenets of Catholicism is that when the apostles and elders of the church (or their successors) all get together, their decisions are guaranteed by the holy Spirit.
This is based on Acts chapter 15.
Eastern Orthodox Christians believe this process continued as long as the entire church was joined, which ended in 1054, I think. Catholics believe this process has never stopped.
The most recent council is Vatican II, which produced several documents, including the lumen gentium. CCC 841 is basically quoting the lumen gentium.
I just wanted to speak about the fact that Our God and Allah are not the same. Sura 5:18 points out that Allah is not a father. One of Yahweh’s most important characteristic is the fact that He is a father. The closest relationship that you can have with Allah is Slave to Master with Yahweh it is Son (or daughter) to Father. Our God is essentially different from their God. Yes I will agree that for us it is not a core doctrinal issue, but if Muslims worship a different God than the Catholic faith has an issue.
Sorry my brother, I have different opinion.
I believe Paul want to say, Jews think they have zeal for true God, the fact is they establish their own god, not a true god
So does Muslim. That is why I believe catholic is lie.
You know the different between catholic and Paul?
Paul say Jews establish their own god
Catholic say Muslim adore the same god as catholic did.
Paul > Jews not have zeal to true god (their own establish god)
Catholic> Muslim adore true God.
Paul >< catholic
I believe Paul want to say, Jews think they have zeal for true God, the fact is they establish their own god, not a true god
So does Muslim. That is why I believe catholic is lie.
You know the different between catholic and Paul?
Paul say Jews establish their own god
Catholic say Muslim adore the same god as catholic did.
Paul > Jews not have zeal to true god (their own establish god)
Catholic> Muslim adore true God.
Paul >< catholic
The verse clearly says that Jews zeal for God. It doesn’t say their own God. Could you show me the verse where Paul speaks about Jews establishing their own god. This could just be when the Jews fell into idolatry as recorded in the Song of Moses in Deutoronomy ( I believe chapter 32). If Jews are truly followers of Judaism they are worshiping a true God.
You right it not state but imply.
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
To me Not accept God righteousness is not accept God
Establish their own righteousness in this context is establish their own God
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
To me Not accept God righteousness is not accept God
Establish their own righteousness in this context is establish their own God
I'm not sure who you are referring to as "we".
I agree that in Romans 10:2, it says that the Jews have a zeal for God, and that's the true God that it's referring to.
Our brother Jackson, and I mean this as gently as possible, seems to go back and forth between it being the true God and a false god.
(Is that a fair characterization, Jackson?)
I agree that in Romans 10:2, it says that the Jews have a zeal for God, and that's the true God that it's referring to.
Our brother Jackson, and I mean this as gently as possible, seems to go back and forth between it being the true God and a false god.
(Is that a fair characterization, Jackson?)
I agree that it's not a core doctrinal issue.
And I also agree that Muslims say all kinds of wrong things about God.
But it raises a kind of boring philosophical question. When two people are talking about God, how many things can they say that are different before they are talking about a different God?
I think some ancient Greek philosopher used the idea of taking a ship and replacing a single board on it. Then replacing another board, and so on. When does it become a different ship?
And then there's the issue of the Jews. I'm fine with saying that Jews and Christians worship the same God, Jews are just wrong about a good many things.
And I also agree that Muslims say all kinds of wrong things about God.
But it raises a kind of boring philosophical question. When two people are talking about God, how many things can they say that are different before they are talking about a different God?
I think some ancient Greek philosopher used the idea of taking a ship and replacing a single board on it. Then replacing another board, and so on. When does it become a different ship?
And then there's the issue of the Jews. I'm fine with saying that Jews and Christians worship the same God, Jews are just wrong about a good many things.
I disagree the Paul says that.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
He says that they went about to establish their own righteousness, not their own god.
You could say that in your view, Paul is implying that they want about to establish their own God.
But I would disagree that Paul is implying that.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
He says that they went about to establish their own righteousness, not their own god.
You could say that in your view, Paul is implying that they want about to establish their own God.
But I would disagree that Paul is implying that.
Does trying to establish your own righteousness automatically mean that you are not worshipping the true God?
If so, then it sounds like a person has to be 100% correct about God in order to worship God. Granted, in order to worship in spirit and in truth, you have to have the spirit and the truth!
There is this pesky passage in Kings
https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-32.htm
https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-33.htm
Obviously, the Samaritans are not worshiping or fearing the true God fully and completely. But their half-baked worship or fear is directed towards the true God.
If so, then it sounds like a person has to be 100% correct about God in order to worship God. Granted, in order to worship in spirit and in truth, you have to have the spirit and the truth!
There is this pesky passage in Kings
https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-32.htm
https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-33.htm
Obviously, the Samaritans are not worshiping or fearing the true God fully and completely. But their half-baked worship or fear is directed towards the true God.