THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY
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Hm, what is wrong with this Statement? If someone claimes to be a Christian, of course I would also look how he is acting. None of us lives sinless, but there should be something to be seen that we at least want to live different then the world. I know that I do not always. But the Holy Spirit reminds me, when I am doing something wrong.
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Right, take one line out of context and use it for another purpose:
(Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you)
(Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.)
(Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?)
(Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?)
(Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.)
What's the message here - " Love your enemies"
I think I need a Sudafed cos you are giving me a headache.
(Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you)
(Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.)
(Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?)
(Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?)
(Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.)
What's the message here - " Love your enemies"
I think I need a Sudafed cos you are giving me a headache.
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I think what he trying to say, in not such a good way ... is that if we are to prove saved by our works then we must reach the level of Christ for it to be valid.
I actually think he raises a very valid point.... because it speaks directly to how many works prove salvation?
To which there is no answer.
Yet Christ is the standard of measurement really... so we all fail, none of us is saved by that metric.
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It was in my experience as well, it wasn't all automatic of course, and by no means did everything come on so quickly, but I'm curious to the argument you're making here (and not "argument" like a fight, just the conversation) because after reading it, it's anything but clear. What is you're experience with being born again? Was there no automatic change in your life? I'm honestly trying to find out what part of God's power coming into us to forever open our eyes to truth, and completely changing us automatically, is something you'd argue against? Did I miss where you where going with this comment?
And @EleventhHour
I was referring to Thomas M. Cucuzza who slandered Dr. MacArthur by grossly and reprehensibly misquoting him.
I was referring to Thomas M. Cucuzza who slandered Dr. MacArthur by grossly and reprehensibly misquoting him.
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Yes way off on that topic.
"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).
I did a search this is in his commentary... Google books.. the link is way to long for some reason.
See "submission" I give in order to receive >>>> Lordship salvation
Well maybe that is not what he means .. that is always the perennial problem.
"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).
I did a search this is in his commentary... Google books.. the link is way to long for some reason.
See "submission" I give in order to receive >>>> Lordship salvation
Well maybe that is not what he means .. that is always the perennial problem.
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You have both guys writings to view. @preacher4truth gave you one, i the other.
Actually what it seems to me @EleventhHour is with his constant use of Matthew 5:48 that there is more to it than that and it is possible that there is an agenda rooted in something, perhaps bitterness. Although I do appreciate you trying to see eye to eye with the poster.
I know that when I've tried to wrap my mind around a scripture in my flesh it can get to this level.
Essentially this verse could present an impossible command, "be ye perfect ..." Any sin is imperfection, therefore this standard is impossible. Any time you get low or down or feel like giving in, you strap your pack (cross) and dig in and war against the flesh in a lifelong struggle toward that perfection. How can one have assurance if they fall short of perfection?
"...for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" This verse doesn't say all do sin, merely all have. Can I draw from that sentence that it is indeed possible and that there is a way to lead a sinless life and be "perfect"?
You see how you can take a lot of "troubling" lines of thinking down on many unproductive trails...and indeed I've lived out "brute force righteousness" but by doing that personally, I end up being unable to contain other things and still fail when I do it in myself and the process of letting the Lord work his righteous in me by following him, abiding, picking up my cross is a bit harder to discern, and it something like watching your hair grow in a mirror. The less you focus on it, the more you seem to notice...you can definitely see it reflected in others at times...or at least I have and I hope others have had a similar experience.
Personally, this particular verse (Mt 5:48) has been accusatory at times based of the above line of thinking. So I would ask at present @Sudakar is what does perfection mean in context with this verse?
Where are you going? No offense, but questions with very little interaction with the responses looks like baiting. If not, you seem to be desirous of driving a point home but consider that the Lord has used many different ways of shining a light on our understanding and yet hiding it from some at the same time. Perhaps a different method?
In regard to faith and how "assurance" works. Faith and human sight (that which can be seen/observed/divined/experienced) are integrated in a unique equation that is impossible for me to describe. Some days I have doubts, and others I don't. There's
a lot more to be said for doubt both intellectual doubts and our own spirit's doubting, but I've been rather long in posts lately, so I'll just skip that unless someone would find it useful.
I don't have a lot of the perfection verse figured out, except that perfect love seems to be the context. I think we most certainly are vessels at times for the Lord's perfect love displayed either to us privately, or to others by many ways. So if his love be in us, we can walk according to that perfect love and perhaps in his sight that is perfection.
Of COURSE that said within context of being a sheep following the good shepherd
I know that when I've tried to wrap my mind around a scripture in my flesh it can get to this level.
Essentially this verse could present an impossible command, "be ye perfect ..." Any sin is imperfection, therefore this standard is impossible. Any time you get low or down or feel like giving in, you strap your pack (cross) and dig in and war against the flesh in a lifelong struggle toward that perfection. How can one have assurance if they fall short of perfection?
"...for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" This verse doesn't say all do sin, merely all have. Can I draw from that sentence that it is indeed possible and that there is a way to lead a sinless life and be "perfect"?
You see how you can take a lot of "troubling" lines of thinking down on many unproductive trails...and indeed I've lived out "brute force righteousness" but by doing that personally, I end up being unable to contain other things and still fail when I do it in myself and the process of letting the Lord work his righteous in me by following him, abiding, picking up my cross is a bit harder to discern, and it something like watching your hair grow in a mirror. The less you focus on it, the more you seem to notice...you can definitely see it reflected in others at times...or at least I have and I hope others have had a similar experience.
Personally, this particular verse (Mt 5:48) has been accusatory at times based of the above line of thinking. So I would ask at present @Sudakar is what does perfection mean in context with this verse?
Where are you going? No offense, but questions with very little interaction with the responses looks like baiting. If not, you seem to be desirous of driving a point home but consider that the Lord has used many different ways of shining a light on our understanding and yet hiding it from some at the same time. Perhaps a different method?
In regard to faith and how "assurance" works. Faith and human sight (that which can be seen/observed/divined/experienced) are integrated in a unique equation that is impossible for me to describe. Some days I have doubts, and others I don't. There's
a lot more to be said for doubt both intellectual doubts and our own spirit's doubting, but I've been rather long in posts lately, so I'll just skip that unless someone would find it useful.
I don't have a lot of the perfection verse figured out, except that perfect love seems to be the context. I think we most certainly are vessels at times for the Lord's perfect love displayed either to us privately, or to others by many ways. So if his love be in us, we can walk according to that perfect love and perhaps in his sight that is perfection.
Of COURSE that said within context of being a sheep following the good shepherd
