THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

None is sinless. What happens to your evidence for saving faith if you do evil works?

So, you’re not sinless, and are not obeying Matthew 5:48. Uh oh!

 

[Sudakar]

Can you get by without doing any good works?

Even non christians do plenty of good works. Does that prove they have saving faith?
What about the evil works you do? Are they evidence of your lack of saving faith?

 

[Deuteronomy]

You are atoned for by grace not by your works. If your good works is evidence of your saving faith, then your evil works must be an evidence of your lack of saving faith!! Does a living faith do evil works?

Hello again Sudakar/@Sackcloth-N-Ashes, I hope you two don't mind me jumping in on this one?

I don't believe that a living faith 'abides' in evil works (a sinful lifestyle). Rather, someone who is a true believer (and therefore in possession of a true and living faith in Christ), always seeks to be reestablished to full fellowship with the Lord whenever they sin, through confession/repentance, and by the forgiveness and cleansing from sin that God promises will be ours as a result .. e.g. 1 John 1:9-2:1.

~Deut

 

[Sudakar]

Sudakar is thoroughly confused about this whole matter. And even after being shown the truth, he prefers to be confused.

Don't be confused thoroughly. Read all my posts.

 

[Sudakar]

Calvin's Commentary on the Bible


17.What I speak, I speak not after the Lord His disposition, it is true, had an eye to God, but the outward appearance (838) might seem unsuitable to a servant of the Lord. At the same time, the things that Paul confesses respecting himself, he, on the other hand, condemns in the false Apostles. (839) For it was not his intention to praise himself, but simply to contrast himself with them, with the view of humbling them. (840) Hence he transfers to his own person what belonged to them, that he may thus open the eyes of the Corinthians. What I have rendered boldness, is in the Greek ὑπόστασις , as to the meaning of which term we have spoken in the ninth chapter. (2 Corinthians 9:4.) Subject-matter (841) or substance, unquestionably, would not be at all suitable here. (842)

2 corinthians12:7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Even non christians do plenty of good works. Does that prove they have saving faith?
What about the evil works you do? Are they evidence of your lack of saving faith?

We don’t do evil works. We sin, but I think @Deuteronomy expressed it correctly.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Read all my posts.

I read your opening posts, and I've read all of your posts on the last several pages of this thread as well, but sadly, I've simply become more confused about what it is that you actually believe I don't think that I'm going to be able to figure out what you mean by, "our works determine whether we are saved or not", without your help. So, if you have the time, I'd sure appreciate the help

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I could take potshots at your meaning, I suppose, but that would probably end up wasting far more time for both of us.

 

[Blain]

Does a christian's love for the Lord enable him to obey Mathew 5:48? If not, why?

Yes just not in the sense that word perfect is viewed. When people of perfect they think sinless without fault and pure in the complete sense. But while we are to strive to perfection as not to become lazy and continue to bear fruits we already are this in his eyes.
It is our love for him that makes us move, we strive for perfection not because we think we will be perfect in doing so but because our hearts eyes are locked on him and the love for him makes us continue to reach for him.
Ir is the love that makes the difference in everything, no matter how we view or believe the scriptures or how weak or strong we are it is the love for him with him and for others that makes that unbreakbale bond and that bond makes us perfect.

 

[Sudakar]

Calvin's Commentary on the Bible


17.What I speak, I speak not after the Lord His disposition, it is true, had an eye to God, but the outward appearance (838) might seem unsuitable to a servant of the Lord. At the same time, the things that Paul confesses respecting himself, he, on the other hand, condemns in the false Apostles. (839) For it was not his intention to praise himself, but simply to contrast himself with them, with the view of humbling them. (840) Hence he transfers to his own person what belonged to them, that he may thus open the eyes of the Corinthians. What I have rendered boldness, is in the Greek ὑπόστασις , as to the meaning of which term we have spoken in the ninth chapter. (2 Corinthians 9:4.) Subject-matter (841) or substance, unquestionably, would not be at all suitable here. (842)

2 corinthians12:7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

 

[Blain]

He’s mixed up. He has James and Paul both preaching different gospels. He’s some sort of messed up dispensationalist.

Well I have fallen behind quite a bit in this thread so I am not sure what mean by that but what I do know is that James and paul both spoke and taught by the same spirit.
What do mean exactly by him saying they are preaching two different gospels?

 

[Sudakar]

What happens to you when you do evil? You keep pointing the finger at me, but there’s three pointing right back at you.

You are the one who trusts in your works to justify yourself by justifying your saving faith. I trust in grace not my works to show evidence.

Now I understand your back is to the wall agreeing that your works cannot prove your saving faith.

 

[Sudakar]

So, you’re not sinless, and are not obeying Matthew 5:48. Uh oh!

So now you agree works cannot prove one has saving faith.

 

[Sudakar]

Hello again Sudakar/@Sackcloth-N-Ashes, I hope you two don't mind me jumping in on this one?

I don't believe that a living faith 'abides' in evil works (a sinful lifestyle). Rather, someone who is a true believer (and therefore in possession of a true and living faith in Christ), always seeks to be reestablished to full fellowship with the Lord whenever they sin, through confession/repentance, and by the forgiveness and cleansing from sin that God promises will be ours as a result .. e.g. 1 John 1:9-2:1.

~Deut

So you are sinless? Why not? Even non christians grieve over their sinful ways, seek forgiveness etc.

 

[Sudakar]

I read your opening posts, and I've read all of your posts on the last several pages of this thread as well, but sadly, I've simply become more confused about what it is that you actually believe I don't think that I'm going to be able to figure out what you mean by, "our works determine whether we are saved or not", without your help. So, if you have the time, I'd sure appreciate the help

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I could take potshots at your meaning, I suppose, but that would probably end up wasting far more time for both of us.

Read all my posts.

 

[Sudakar]

Yes just not in the sense that word perfect is viewed. When people of perfect they think sinless without fault and pure in the complete sense. But while we are to strive to perfection as not to become lazy and continue to bear fruits we already are this in his eyes.
It is our love for him that makes us move, we strive for perfection not because we think we will be perfect in doing so but because our hearts eyes are locked on him and the love for him makes us continue to reach for him.
Ir is the love that makes the difference in everything, no matter how we view or believe the scriptures or how weak or strong we are it is the love for him with him and for others that makes that unbreakbale bond and that bond makes us perfect.

If love for Lord proves saving faith, do evil works prove the lack of saving faith?

 

[Blain]

If love for Lord proves saving faith, do evil works prove the lack of saving faith?

Everytime we sin or fall short that is an evil work, there is no human alive christian or not who does not sin so no it doesn't prove that.Now to just flat out do whatever we please with no regard to God and to continue to do this would because anyone saved will at least try to not do this.

 

[Sudakar]

Oh and yea yea yea, non believers are good too. Yea but the thing they can't see, the MAJOR thing that you still seem to be blind of, is the spirit man, that little part about the resurrected spirit, oh yea along with being reconnected to His Spirit. Yea man that's kind of the thing isn't it. Is all this strange to you?

Externally non christians appear more saved than christians when seen through works. But the real difference is in the confessions of faith in Christ's atonement which non christians dont have.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Read all my posts.

Sadly, that will not help me. The more that I read what you've written, the more confused I get

It would be helpful, but if you don't want to take the time to make what you are saying/what you believe clear, that's fine, I'll just comment as best I can going forward.

~Deut

 

[Sudakar]

Perhaps "dogmatic"? Like a dog with a bone to chew who will not let go of it

They certainly have a bone to pick

Dogmatism is seen Lordship salvationists not with those who trust in His grace.

 

[Sudakar]

It's not possible to define salvation to the extent that satisfies curious humans. At this point faith (trust) takes over leaving the definitions wallowing in mud
All we can do is accept the nourishment provided by God in our new found lives and try to attain to the perfect image as best we can through the mysteries of the faith and the personal relationship. No-one is going to adore God otherwise

Can they who trust in their works and reject His grace be saved?