THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

[Guojing]

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ... For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Hand in glove....

So works is a necessary condition for salvation, together with faith. That is what James is literally saying right?

 

[Guojing]

I'm pretty sure a change of mind would include a change of actions.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul clearly distinguished between work and belief there.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So works is a necessary condition for salvation, together with faith. That is what James is literally saying right?

Nope.

 

[Guojing]

Nope.

Is James such a bad communicator that he would need anyone of us to help him to explain what he "really" meant?

 

[EleventhHour]

I'm pretty sure a change of mind would include a change of actions.

Yes, but the word itself is does not have "action" as part of its meaning and to add action to metanoia is to imply work is part of salvation.

That is why the word is significant.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Is James such a bad communicator that he would need anyone of us to help him to explain what he "really" meant?

Nope.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes, but the word itself is does not have "action" as part of its meaning and to add action to metanoia is to imply work is part of salvation.

That is why the word is significant.

Well, you don’t change your mind and still do the same thing(s).

 

[tourist]

Honestly this is this the first I have heard of lordship salvation no idea what it is really

Me neither.

 

[Guojing]

Nope.

So what he said was clear, "Faith without works is dead".

 

[EleventhHour]

Well, you don’t change your mind and still do the same thing(s).

At the point of salvation no works.

Now if you believe repentance follows regeneration as some, then I understand why the need to add to the meaning of the word.

I believe Bill Mounce follows a Calvinist interpretation so I understand the viewpoint.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So what he said was clear, "Faith without works is dead".

Yes.

 

[Blain]

Me neither.

From the debate itself it honestly seems to be just another term of faith and works equaling salvation

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

At the point of salvation no works.

Now if you believe repentance follows regeneration as some, then I understand why the need to add to the meaning of the word.

I believe Bill Mounce follows a Calvinist interpretation so I understand the viewpoint.

Look at King David. He not only commits adultery, but also murder. When Nathan confronts him, he repents. We never hear of him doing those things again. So his changing of mind(repentance) was followed with a change of actions, no more adultery or murder.

 

[Deuteronomy]

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

Hello Sudakar, I just saw your thread and have not read through it yet, so I apologize if this has already been posted here (since this Q & A is from John MacArthur's broadcast ministry at, www.gty.org, and directly concerns the quote you gave us in the OP from the 1st edition of his book, I thought it was important to post).

Does John MacArthur teach salvation by works in his book Hard to Believe?​

One paragraph in the first edition of Hard to Believe contained a glaring error that has the potential to mislead readers about the book’s whole intent. The problematic passage is the opening paragraph of chapter 6 (page 93), which seems to suggest that salvation is the fruit of godly living. The truth is exactly the opposite.​

​

The error was inadvertently introduced into the manuscript in the late stages of the editorial process, when (in order to simplify the book) four chapters were deleted from the original manuscript and one of the remaining chapters was severely abridged. John MacArthur approved the abridgments.​

​

Apparently, however, in an effort to make a new transition that would smooth over the deletions, an editor involved in the process made significant revisions to the opening of chapter 6. Unfortunately, that change was not submitted to John for approval. We believe the error was an oversight, and not anyone’s deliberate attempt to tamper with the book’s theology. The result, however, severely muddled the message of the book.​

​

A revision was sent to the publisher for future editions of the book. In all subsequent printings, here is how the opening paragraph of chapter six reads (revisions are in bold):​

​

"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak,​

​

reveals whether our faith is authentic."​

​

~https://www.gty.org/library/Questions/QA508 ​

~Deut

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

At the point of salvation no works.

Never averred there were works that caused salvation.

Now if you believe repentance follows regeneration as some, then I understand why the need to add to the meaning of the word.

Its not adding meaning to the word. If you change your mind about anything, your actions change as well.

I believe Bill Mounce follows a Calvinist interpretation so I understand the viewpoint.

He expounded upon the meaning. He didn’t add to it. I will now give you the last word, K?

 

[azamzimtoti]

Yes, but the word itself is does not have "action" as part of its meaning and to add action to metanoia is to imply work is part of salvation.

That is why the word is significant.

According to my Greek interlinear it's a verb in the imperative mood, looking at Mark 1:15 it says repent and believe the gospel. In other places it stands alone "And they went out, and preached that men should repent"

I thought you were gonna leave it there then?

 

[Magenta]

I'm pretty sure a change of mind would include a change of actions.

I agree. Coming to believe, laying down my opposition to God, turned my world upside down

 

[Guojing]

Yes.

Isn't that saying works is necessary for salvation, like oxygen is necessary for fire?

Fire without oxygen will be dead too? That is not saying oxygen will cause a fire.

 

[EleventhHour]

Look at King David. He not only commits adultery, but also murder. When Nathan confronts him, he repents. We never hear of him doing those things again. So his changing of mind(repentance) was followed with a change of actions, no more adultery or murder.

I am not disputing this at all. And yes I agree
My main point it the word "repentance" is a much more loaded term than "metanoia."
The context needs to be considered with metanoia.

The word means "after-mind" and signifies a change of mind: thinking one way, but then afterwards thinking another.

I can change my mind about something and not act on it.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Yes, but the word itself is does not have "action" as part of its meaning and to add action to metanoia is to imply work is part of salvation.

I don't agree that it would imply "works".

That is why the word is significant.

What other word would be used?