Closing the Gap in Dispensationalism

[reneweddaybyday]

I see it more like God doesn't measure up to the one you worship so you try to change his words into something more acceptable.

I know you do ... and that does not change the meaning of the passage into what you claim.

you have been shown ... you refuse to believe ... you are stubbornly rebellious.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

 

[Dave-L]

I know you do ... and that does not change the meaning of the passage into what you claim.

you have been shown ... you refuse to believe ... you are stubbornly rebellious.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

You are denying God said what he said

 

[John146]

Not according to Jesus.
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 (KJV 1900)

The body of Christ is not even an entity yet. The Church began after the resurrectio. Jesus is addressing the Jews. Beside, everybody has tribulation in this world, even lost people. That’s the result of sin and death.

 

[Dave-L]

The body of Christ is not even an entity yet. The Church began after the resurrectio. Jesus is addressing the Jews. Beside, everybody has tribulation in this world, even lost people. That’s the result of sin and death.

The Church = the congregation of the Lord in the OT. Now spiritual only with the unbelieving Jews removed.
“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:22–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[John146]

The Church = the congregation of the Lord in the OT. Now spiritual only with the unbelieving Jews removed.
“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:22–23 (KJV 1900)

You should learn how to rightly divide the OT church made up of God’s physical people the Jews and the NT church made up of the Lord’s spiritual people the body of Chris.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are denying God said what he said

I fully acknowledge that God revealed to Micaiah that Ahab's prophets were lying to Ahab.

Micaiah then told Ahab that Ahab's prophets were lying to Ahab.

Micaiah also told Ahab that if he went to Ramothgilead, Ahab would die and Israel would no longer have a king.

Ahab made his decision to go to Ramothgilead, even though Ahab had the information he needed in order to not die at Ramothgilead.

 

[Dave-L]

I fully acknowledge that God revealed to Micaiah that Ahab's prophets were lying to Ahab.

Micaiah then told Ahab that Ahab's prophets were lying to Ahab.

Micaiah also told Ahab that if he went to Ramothgilead, Ahab would die and Israel would no longer have a king.

Ahab made his decision to go to Ramothgilead, even though Ahab had the information he needed in order to not die at Ramothgilead.

But the Prophet already told the details of his death. = predestinated and cannot change.

 

[Dave-L]

You should learn how to rightly divide the OT church made up of God’s physical people the Jews and the NT church made up of the Lord’s spiritual people the body of Chris.

God has ONE people, the Church (Israel), and no others. The broken off unbelieves can only become Israel upon accepting Christ.
“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;” Ephesians 2:15–19 (KJV 1900)

 

[John146]

God has ONE people, the Church (Israel), and no others. The broken off unbelieves can only become Israel upon accepting Christ.
“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;” Ephesians 2:15–19 (KJV 1900)

yes, one of the purposes of the body of Christ is to bring the Jews and Gentiles together. In Chris, there are no Jews or Gentiles for we are all one. No more Israel Or twelve tribes in Christ.

 

[John146]

God has ONE people, the Church (Israel), and no others. The broken off unbelieves can only become Israel upon accepting Christ.
“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;” Ephesians 2:15–19 (KJV 1900)

And I would add that the Lord is not through with the Jew. The body of Christ has not replaced the physical promises to that nation.

 

[Dave-L]

And I would add that the Lord is not through with the Jew. The body of Christ has not replaced the physical promises to that nation.

Paul says all the promises of God are yes in Jesus. He also said the broken off unbelievers are under wrath until the end.
Only those like Paul, who accept Christ are grafted back in.

 

[Dave-L]

yes, one of the purposes of the body of Christ is to bring the Jews and Gentiles together. In Chris, there are no Jews or Gentiles for we are all one. No more Israel Or twelve tribes in Christ.

This has been happening since Romans 11 explained it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But the Prophet already told the details of his death.

that's what I've been telling you.

What Micaiah told Ahab was what happened ... so those were the words of the Lord.

Ahab's prophets lied:

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously


Since what Ahab's prophets told Ahab did not come to pass, those were not the words of the Lord ... the prophets spoke presumptuously.

You keep insisting that Ahab's prophets spoke the words of the Lord but that is not true because what Ahab's prophets told Ahab did not come to pass.

Also recall Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie

 

[Nehemiah6]

God has ONE people, the Church (Israel), and no others. The broken off unbelieves can only become Israel upon accepting Christ.

You continue to promote Replacement Theology. However the Bible is quite clear that God will establish redeemed and restored Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. Or is that still news to you?

 

[Dave-L]

You continue to promote Replacement Theology. However the Bible is quite clear that God will establish redeemed and restored Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. Or is that still news to you?

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/removal-theology-not-replacement-theology.190118/

 

[Dave-L]

that's what I've been telling you.

What Micaiah told Ahab was what happened ... so those were the words of the Lord.

Ahab's prophets lied:

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously


Since what Ahab's prophets told Ahab did not come to pass, those were not the words of the Lord ... the prophets spoke presumptuously.

You keep insisting that Ahab's prophets spoke the words of the Lord but that is not true because what Ahab's prophets told Ahab did not come to pass.

Also recall Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie

What about this?

“Prophets or those who tell the future with dreams might come to you and say they will show you a miracle or a sign. The miracle or sign might even happen, and then they might say, “Let’s serve other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let’s worship them.” But you must not listen to those prophets or dreamers. The LORD your God is testing you, to find out if you love him with your whole being. Serve only the LORD your God. Respect him, keep his commands, and obey him. Serve him and be loyal to him.” Deuteronomy 13:1–4 (NCV)

False Prophets do miracles so God can test us.

 

[Chester]

Closing the Gap in Dispensationalism.
Making sense out of Daniel’s 70 weeks using the Septuagint. The bible translation Jesus and the disciples used.

“And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.” Daniel 9:25–27 (Brenton LXX En)

• 
  
  • Notice how easy it is to understand this passage when we show how Christ fulfilled it. It simply says Jesus the prince will come after the 62 + 7 weeks. That is after the 69th week, which is another way of saying at the beginning of the 70th week.
  
  
  • They will destroy (crucify) him. And he will destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince (Titus) that is coming.
  
  
  • And one week shall establish the [new] covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away [on the cross]: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations [continued animal sacrifice]; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.”

If we compare the Dispensational version, it does not fit and even contradicts the Septuagint translation. Using the English bible, the Dispensationalists turn Jesus into the Antichrist found somewhere in the distant future.
“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

H. A. Ironside writes: “The moment the Messiah died on the cross (v26), the prophetic clock stopped. There has not been a tick upon that clock for nineteen centuries [when he wrote this]. It will not begin to go again until the entire present age has come to an end, and Israel will once again be taken up by God.”[ii]

So they start by inserting a gap after the crucifixion. And turn Jesus who fulfilled the prophecy into to Antichrist sometime in the future. With thousands of years now passed and counting.
[A]nd the people of the prince (Antichrist) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” Daniel 9:25–27 (KJV 1900)
But, for this to happen things must happen before the severed 70th week begins.
One, Antichrist supposedly contracts or covenants with the Jews, and in the middle of the 70th week when he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to end.
So they think this must mean there will be a rebuilt temple and animal sacrifices before this can happen. So they take it upon themselves to prophecy this will happen. Even though scripture doesn’t mention it.
Also since the people of the prince are Romans, they take it upon themselves to prophesy a restored Roman Empire. Again based on a gap scripture never mentions and doesn’t allow for in the Septuagint. It is all guesswork about what might happen if there were such a gap. And then arrogantly prophesying it will happen.
Based on the idea of what might happen if there were such a gap, the bible scavenger hunt begins. Prophecy buffs world-wide looking for proof texts to support a third temple, a restored Roman Empire and a return to animal sacrifices. Something contextual scripture knows nothing of and, the book of Hebrews rejects.
And more scavenger hunting with many obsessing over the media for clues about a rebuilt temple, a revived Roman Empire, or anything mentioning Russia. And who the Antichrist might be. In my lifetime it was Henry Kissinger, Gorbachev, and President Obama who were prime suspects. Before that it was Stalin, Hitler, or any other tyrant who captured the media. With everything from SS numbers to microchips being the Mark of the Beast.
Often they assign new interpretations to already fulfilled prophecies to bolster their views. The Great Tribulation of AD 70 reassigned to the missing 70th week. The “rapture” on the last day after the resurrection according to Jesus and Paul, moved to the 70th week 1007 years before the end, or there about.

And it influences US foreign policy, duped politicians in top levels tipping the scales towards nuclear war thinking it is inevitable.[iii] Becoming self-fulfilled prophecy based on what might happen if there were such a gap.

Everything from Russia marching on Israel according to a heavily re-written Ezekiel 38. Fulfilled long ago in the book of Esther by nations of the Persian Empire. Now imported into modern times with Ezekiel’s horses, swords, and spears, originally aimed at stealing Israel’s cattle. Turned into submarines, aircraft carries, missiles, tanks, and modern Warcraft[iv] to destroy Israel, not to steal their cattle.

Where did Dispensationalism come from? A brief sketch shows the Jesuits borrowed from an old heresy that inserted a gap in Daniel’s prophecy. Why? Because the Protestants identified the Papacy as Antichrist, and people were leaving the church in droves. The Jesuits countered this trying to prove the Papacy is not the Antichrist. If people would accept the gap version of Daniel, the Antichrist could not be the Pope. Because the Antichrist would not appear anytime soon, but in the distant future.[v]

In time this Counter Reformation lie caught on to where it now covers the world.


This is the Bible Jesus Used
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/tips/what-bible-did-jesus-use-11638841.html


[ii] Harry A. Ironside, The Great Parenthesis: Timely Messages on the Interval Between the 69th and 70th Weeks of Daniel’s Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1943).
[iii] Prophecy and Politics Grace Halsell
[iv] The Battle of Gog and Magog Fulfilled in Esther By Phillip G. Kayser · Esther 9:1-32 · 2002-3-1
[v] Dispensational Truth; pg. 5 Clarence Larkin

A big problem here: You say this is the Septuagint? No, it is not the Septuagint. What you have is an English translation of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is in Greek!

So you are quoting a translation of a translation of the original Hebrew. And Biblical scholars agree that the Septuagint itself was not a good translation by modern standards of linguistics. (Though Jesus and the apostles did quote from it and used it freely!)

The question is not: What does an English translation of a Greek translation of the original Hebrew say?

The question is: What does the original Hebrew say?

 

[Dave-L]

A big problem here: You say this is the Septuagint? No, it is not the Septuagint. What you have is an English translation of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is in Greek!

So you are quoting a translation of a translation of the original Hebrew. And Biblical scholars agree that the Septuagint itself was not a good translation by modern standards of linguistics. (Though Jesus and the apostles did quote from it and used it freely!)

The question is not: What does an English translation of a Greek translation of the original Hebrew say?

The question is: What does the original Hebrew say?

The LXX makes the English translations more clear. What does the Hebrew say?

 

[Chester]

The LXX makes the English translations more clear. What does the Hebrew say?

I am not a Hebrew scholar - can't read it!

What I am pointing out is that you are quoting an English translation of a Greek translation of the Hebrew original.

Our modern English translations are directly translated from the Hebrew original.

The Septuagint definitely has value as a resource - I am not arguing that. It can be useful to help us understand how the Jews of the several centuries before Christ interpreted and understood the Old Testament.

It does not make sense, though, (to me at least) to use an English translation of the Septuagint to try to debunk someone's interpretation of Daniel's vision.

 

[Dave-L]

I am not a Hebrew scholar - can't read it!

What I am pointing out is that you are quoting an English translation of a Greek translation of the Hebrew original.

Our modern English translations are directly translated from the Hebrew original.

The Septuagint definitely has value as a resource - I am not arguing that. It can be useful to help us understand how the Jews of the several centuries before Christ interpreted and understood the Old Testament.

They all say the same thing, but the LXX makes it clear the prince is the same person each time mentioned = Jesus. Are you a Dispensationalist?