1 Peter 3:19-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 different interpretations.
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I would think if we offer that the Son of man, Jesus was communing with the saints that has disappeared or no longer under the sun we would be promoting necromancy "seeking after familiar spirits called workers with familiar spirits.
The Noah account was not the division of the sheep from the goats. During the time period when he was building the ark many heard the gospel . They were kept in a temporal holding place until the time of reformation . Christ did not commune with the dead. The corrupted flesh had returned to the field of clay .
I believe that HE went by THE SPIRIT to preach to those who were in prison...and I believe as the scripture states, when HE ascended, HE led captivity captive in HIS TRAIN...
I believe the HOLY ONE of GOD was HOLY according to THE SPIRIT which was in HIS earthly vessel from the moment HE came into the world...
I do not believe that JESUS had two spirits: one his human spirit, and that after HIS death, that was when HE was quickened by THE HOLY SPIRIT...
Nope...I believe that HE had ONE SPIRIT...and that HE had the power even before HIS CRUCIFIXION and RESURRECTION to lay down HIS body and to take it up again..
And, I believe that HE came to walk in our humanity, not only to do what only HE could do to reconcile us back to GOD, but to model for us the exact relationship a son of GOD is to have with THE FATHER, who is in heaven.
And I believe HE had all authority to teach.reveal.show us THE FATHER because HE came forth from GOD...the exact representation of HIS being and the FULL radiance of HIS GLORY, for it pleased GOD that IN HIM the fullness would dwell....
I believe the HOLY ONE of GOD was HOLY according to THE SPIRIT which was in HIS earthly vessel from the moment HE came into the world...
I do not believe that JESUS had two spirits: one his human spirit, and that after HIS death, that was when HE was quickened by THE HOLY SPIRIT...
Nope...I believe that HE had ONE SPIRIT...and that HE had the power even before HIS CRUCIFIXION and RESURRECTION to lay down HIS body and to take it up again..
And, I believe that HE came to walk in our humanity, not only to do what only HE could do to reconcile us back to GOD, but to model for us the exact relationship a son of GOD is to have with THE FATHER, who is in heaven.
And I believe HE had all authority to teach.reveal.show us THE FATHER because HE came forth from GOD...the exact representation of HIS being and the FULL radiance of HIS GLORY, for it pleased GOD that IN HIM the fullness would dwell....
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And I believe that everyone should reread the scriptures regarding the christology of THE LORD...
Further, when John was foretold what would be the sign of the ONE who would baptize, John saw and recognized who the LORD JESUS was before he baptized HIM...it wasn´t when the HOLY SPIRIT alighted on HIM that John witnessed somehow that the HOLY SPIRIT had come upon THIS ONE...it was before...
For John would NEVER have deterred from baptizing JESUS and would NEVER have said, it is YOU who need to baptize me...if he hadn seen and recognized THE SIGN of who it was standing before him...but he did...and he said it BEFORE HE BAPTIZED HIM...
Further, when John was foretold what would be the sign of the ONE who would baptize, John saw and recognized who the LORD JESUS was before he baptized HIM...it wasn´t when the HOLY SPIRIT alighted on HIM that John witnessed somehow that the HOLY SPIRIT had come upon THIS ONE...it was before...
For John would NEVER have deterred from baptizing JESUS and would NEVER have said, it is YOU who need to baptize me...if he hadn seen and recognized THE SIGN of who it was standing before him...but he did...and he said it BEFORE HE BAPTIZED HIM...
]I would think if we offer that the Son of man, Jesus was communing with the saints that has disappeared or no longer under the sun we would be promoting necromancy "seeking after familiar spirits called workers with familiar spirits.
The Noah account was not the division of the sheep from the goats. During the time period when he was building the ark many heard the gospel . They were kept in a temporal holding place until the time of reformation . Christ did not commune with the dead. The corrupted flesh had returned to the field of clay .
The Noah account was not the division of the sheep from the goats. During the time period when he was building the ark many heard the gospel . They were kept in a temporal holding place until the time of reformation . Christ did not commune with the dead. The corrupted flesh had returned to the field of clay .
These were the words of another poster on the matter. I wanted to post it, because since the first paragraph is simply a paraphrase and the words of the poster that:¨ALL the early church fathers believed most emphatically... I want to read the known Church Fathers actual comments to see if the poster who made this statement simply misunderstood...
ALL the early church fathers believed most emphatically that Our Lord's soul stripped of its body (which was in the tomb, His spirit having returned to God), descended into Hades (the Abyss) and there having made atonement, He preached to the spirits in prison, the wicked and ignorant dead and the OT saints who had died in faith. Matt 12v40, 27v59,60, Luke 23v43 (with Eccl 12v7), Acts 2v23-32, Rom 10v7, Heb 2v14,15, 1Peter 3v18-20, 4v6.
1) Irenaeus says explicitly that the Lord “descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and there mission of sins ready for those who believe in Him,” and he also states that remission of sins was received by, “all who had hopes towards Him, who proclaimed His advent and submitted to His dispensations.” Irenaeus 4.27,2.
2) Justin accused the Jews of mutilating a prophecy of Jeremiah's, which had read, “The Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, remembered those His dead who slept in the dust of the grave, and descended to them to proclaim to them His salvation.”
3) Clement of Alexander preached that the souls of the Heathen as well as Jews benefited from the revelation of Christ to them in Hades. The Jews being in bonds to the burden of the Law, and the Heathen being “those in darkness,” received the proclamation of the truth of the Gospel from Jesus. This proclamation involved the offer of salvation, and the possibility of repentance and forgiveness of all the sins that a man had committed in ignorance, when not clearly knowing God.
4) Origen Clement's pupil, as we have already stated, believed that Jesus preached to the dead. A famous infidel named Celsus was speaking with Origen and ridiculed this widespread belief of the Church, he said, “I suppose Christ, when He failed to persuade the living, went down to Hades to persuade those who live there?” Origen answered him, “Whether it please Celsus or no, we of the Church assert that the soul of our Lord, stripped of its body, did there hold converse with other souls, that were in like manner stripped, that He might there convert those who were capable of instruction, or were otherwise in ways known to Him fit for it.” Origen c. Celsum, 2.43.
5) Tertullian also stated that the belief that Jesus descended into Hades and preached there, had been held in the Church since the days of the apostles, his testimony is of great value since Tertullian censured anything that was new.
6) Cyril of Jerusalem states, in beautiful picturesque language, that: “The holy prophets ran unto Him {Jesus}, and Moses the law giver, and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob; David also and Samuel, and Isaiah and John the Baptist, who bore witness when he asked, Art thou He that should come, or look we for another? All the just were ransomed whom death had devoured, for it behoved the King who had been heralded to become the redeemer of His noble heralds. Then each of the just said, O death where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory? For the Conqueror hath redeemed us.” Cyril Hieros., Catech. 14.9,10.
7) Athanasius said that more than the Patriarchs and prophets were delivered from Hades, he extended the circle of those who Jesus delivered from Hades through His preaching, “and thinks of the souls of Adam as held fast under sentence of death, and crying to his Lord ever more, and of those who had pleased God, and had been justified by the law of nature, as mourning and crying with Him till the mercy of God revealed to them the mystery of redemption.”
ALL the early church fathers believed most emphatically that Our Lord's soul stripped of its body (which was in the tomb, His spirit having returned to God), descended into Hades (the Abyss) and there having made atonement, He preached to the spirits in prison, the wicked and ignorant dead and the OT saints who had died in faith. Matt 12v40, 27v59,60, Luke 23v43 (with Eccl 12v7), Acts 2v23-32, Rom 10v7, Heb 2v14,15, 1Peter 3v18-20, 4v6.
1) Irenaeus says explicitly that the Lord “descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and there mission of sins ready for those who believe in Him,” and he also states that remission of sins was received by, “all who had hopes towards Him, who proclaimed His advent and submitted to His dispensations.” Irenaeus 4.27,2.
2) Justin accused the Jews of mutilating a prophecy of Jeremiah's, which had read, “The Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, remembered those His dead who slept in the dust of the grave, and descended to them to proclaim to them His salvation.”
3) Clement of Alexander preached that the souls of the Heathen as well as Jews benefited from the revelation of Christ to them in Hades. The Jews being in bonds to the burden of the Law, and the Heathen being “those in darkness,” received the proclamation of the truth of the Gospel from Jesus. This proclamation involved the offer of salvation, and the possibility of repentance and forgiveness of all the sins that a man had committed in ignorance, when not clearly knowing God.
4) Origen Clement's pupil, as we have already stated, believed that Jesus preached to the dead. A famous infidel named Celsus was speaking with Origen and ridiculed this widespread belief of the Church, he said, “I suppose Christ, when He failed to persuade the living, went down to Hades to persuade those who live there?” Origen answered him, “Whether it please Celsus or no, we of the Church assert that the soul of our Lord, stripped of its body, did there hold converse with other souls, that were in like manner stripped, that He might there convert those who were capable of instruction, or were otherwise in ways known to Him fit for it.” Origen c. Celsum, 2.43.
5) Tertullian also stated that the belief that Jesus descended into Hades and preached there, had been held in the Church since the days of the apostles, his testimony is of great value since Tertullian censured anything that was new.
6) Cyril of Jerusalem states, in beautiful picturesque language, that: “The holy prophets ran unto Him {Jesus}, and Moses the law giver, and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob; David also and Samuel, and Isaiah and John the Baptist, who bore witness when he asked, Art thou He that should come, or look we for another? All the just were ransomed whom death had devoured, for it behoved the King who had been heralded to become the redeemer of His noble heralds. Then each of the just said, O death where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory? For the Conqueror hath redeemed us.” Cyril Hieros., Catech. 14.9,10.
7) Athanasius said that more than the Patriarchs and prophets were delivered from Hades, he extended the circle of those who Jesus delivered from Hades through His preaching, “and thinks of the souls of Adam as held fast under sentence of death, and crying to his Lord ever more, and of those who had pleased God, and had been justified by the law of nature, as mourning and crying with Him till the mercy of God revealed to them the mystery of redemption.”
Can he commune with those who have no spirit like Saul who then sought after necromancy and received a strong delusion .Thinking dead people can hear ? Can he commune with dead spiritless bones like Pope Formosa's? ?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Good day Just_Truth!
The first thing that we need to establish is whether God offers salvation to those who die in their sins. Is the preaching of salvation to the spirits in Sheol/Hades supported by the rest of God's word?
We see from the event of the rich man and Lazarus that when one dies in their sins that there is no second chance. The rich man was in Sheol/Hades in torment in flame. He did not ask why he was there, but only asked Abraham to send Lazarus back up to the earth to warn his five brothers so that they didn't come to the same place of torment.
"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."
Today (while we are still alive), is the day of salvation. We are saved by grace through faith. After a person dies, there is no need for him to have faith, because he will know the truth of what happens after death. And just like the rich man, he will know that he deserves to be there.
Once a person dies in their sins, God's grace, mercy and love are no longer in operation for that person. Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of those who have faith in Him. The wrath that all believers deserve was poured out on Christ. Therefore through faith God's wrath and the penalty for sins has been satisfied completely for those who believe. But for those who die without faith, they will be held accountable for every sin they ever committed, because all sin must be accounted for. This will take place at the great white throne judgment, where all of the unrighteous dead will be resurrected, their spirits being released from Sheol/Hades and will stand before God to be judged for their sins. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.
In conclusion, while it is true that Jesus' spirit went down to Sheol/Hades after the death of His body, He did not preach the good news of salvation to those who died in their sins, as though they had a second chance.
It is also possible that Jesus went and made proclamation to those angels who sinned who attempted to defiling the Messianic blood line by taking human women as wives and corrupting mankind, which was the reason for the flood of Noah's time. For scripture states that these angels were put into tartaroo in chains of darkness. It is possible that Jesus went there to proclaim that He had accomplished what they tried to disrupt.
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For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell (Tartaroo), placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly; 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. - 2 Peter 2:4-9
"And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling—these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. - Jude 1:6
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The scripture above demonstrates that since God did not spare those angels who sinned, nor those ungodly people that He destroyed in the flood and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, then it would demonstrate that the proclamation that Jesus made to those spirits in Sheol/Hades was not an offer of salvation, but proclaimed something else.
The first thing that we need to establish is whether God offers salvation to those who die in their sins. Is the preaching of salvation to the spirits in Sheol/Hades supported by the rest of God's word?
We see from the event of the rich man and Lazarus that when one dies in their sins that there is no second chance. The rich man was in Sheol/Hades in torment in flame. He did not ask why he was there, but only asked Abraham to send Lazarus back up to the earth to warn his five brothers so that they didn't come to the same place of torment.
"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."
Today (while we are still alive), is the day of salvation. We are saved by grace through faith. After a person dies, there is no need for him to have faith, because he will know the truth of what happens after death. And just like the rich man, he will know that he deserves to be there.
Once a person dies in their sins, God's grace, mercy and love are no longer in operation for that person. Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of those who have faith in Him. The wrath that all believers deserve was poured out on Christ. Therefore through faith God's wrath and the penalty for sins has been satisfied completely for those who believe. But for those who die without faith, they will be held accountable for every sin they ever committed, because all sin must be accounted for. This will take place at the great white throne judgment, where all of the unrighteous dead will be resurrected, their spirits being released from Sheol/Hades and will stand before God to be judged for their sins. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.
In conclusion, while it is true that Jesus' spirit went down to Sheol/Hades after the death of His body, He did not preach the good news of salvation to those who died in their sins, as though they had a second chance.
It is also possible that Jesus went and made proclamation to those angels who sinned who attempted to defiling the Messianic blood line by taking human women as wives and corrupting mankind, which was the reason for the flood of Noah's time. For scripture states that these angels were put into tartaroo in chains of darkness. It is possible that Jesus went there to proclaim that He had accomplished what they tried to disrupt.
========================================================================
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell (Tartaroo), placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly; 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. - 2 Peter 2:4-9
"And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling—these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. - Jude 1:6
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The scripture above demonstrates that since God did not spare those angels who sinned, nor those ungodly people that He destroyed in the flood and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, then it would demonstrate that the proclamation that Jesus made to those spirits in Sheol/Hades was not an offer of salvation, but proclaimed something else.
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That statement is not noted by the early church fathers...they simply gave the reason for why HE went to preach to the spirits. The only one close to what this JB poster said was noted in Origien...who did NOT say that HIS SPIRIT had returned to GOD. as this JB poster paraphrased and suggested..
This is what this church father, Origen, actually said
:Origen answered him, “Whether it please Celsus or no, we of the Church assert that the soul of our Lord, stripped of its body, did there hold converse with other souls, that were in like manner stripped, that He might there convert those who were capable of instruction, or were otherwise in ways known to Him fit for it.” Origen c. Celsum, 2.43.
This is what this church father, Origen, actually said
:Origen answered him, “Whether it please Celsus or no, we of the Church assert that the soul of our Lord, stripped of its body, did there hold converse with other souls, that were in like manner stripped, that He might there convert those who were capable of instruction, or were otherwise in ways known to Him fit for it.” Origen c. Celsum, 2.43.