Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?
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That is my point you chose to dismiss. The WORD was always internal with the Father even before the Father begat the Word. Therefore, they have existed together for all Eternity whether the WORD was internal or external. But either internal or external, the WORD is still part of the Father and the Father part of the WORD.
But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.[Titus 2:1 NASB]
When you post in ways that are hard to understand, you are not adhering to the above verse. Man made vernacular? What was the bible written in? Words. You are saying things that just don't make any sense. You're gagging at a gnat by posting the above post.
When you post in ways that are hard to understand, you are not adhering to the above verse. Man made vernacular? What was the bible written in? Words. You are saying things that just don't make any sense. You're gagging at a gnat by posting the above post.
The Bible is written by Inspired Words, and should be used according to that same format when discussing it.
When Jesus was on Earth, John explains He was made flesh, Titus calls it manifested into flesh. So we understand the Disciples knew the difference between Spirit and Physical Being. Jesus in John 4:23-24 specifies the Father, is God, and is a Spirit that we are to worship in spirit and truth.
I do not believe the Trinity consists of 3 physical bodies. I believe if God is a Spirit like the WORD made flesh claims, then the WORD and Holy Spirit are also Spirit. Even the Nicene Creed don't claim "persons."
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
^
This comes from our Church Fathers and believed by those who wrote the Nicene Creed.
By John 4:23-24 version, God (the Father) is SPIRIT and begat both the WORD and His WISDOM (Holy Spirit). In my view, the Most High Supreme Spirit begats from within Himself, therefore what is begat is also Spirit!
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
^
This comes from our Church Fathers and believed by those who wrote the Nicene Creed.
By John 4:23-24 version, God (the Father) is SPIRIT and begat both the WORD and His WISDOM (Holy Spirit). In my view, the Most High Supreme Spirit begats from within Himself, therefore what is begat is also Spirit!
But we do not have those inspired words in the originals. What we have are copies of copies of copies of copies. And then we have them also translated into a myriad of tongues. Even if the Nicene Creed does not claim "persons", they clearly articulate three distinct persons in the Triune Godhead.
Again, you are saying things intentionally obtuse. Good bye.
Again, you are saying things intentionally obtuse. Good bye.
Not sure why you think as such when I have presented their own writings:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
^
From the writers of Nicene Creed and Church Fathers, reading what they wrote up above, where is the distinctness you claim they claim?
""I do not believe the Trinity consists of 3 physical bodies. I believe if God is a Spirit like the WORD made flesh claims, then the WORD and Holy Spirit are also Spirit. Even the Nicene Creed don't claim "persons."""
In revelation 5 one being takes the scroll from the hand of the other by being.
The father is in the form of a human...as is the son.
Two beings.
Two "persons"
In revelation 5 one being takes the scroll from the hand of the other by being.
The father is in the form of a human...as is the son.
Two beings.
Two "persons"
From the actual oldest Greek dated Papyrus we know to factually exist:
Revelation 5:
6 Καὶ εἶδον ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ θρόνου καὶ τῶν τεσσάρων ζῴων καὶ ἐν μέσῳ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἀρνίον ἑστηκὸς ὡς ἐσφαγμένον, ἔχων κέρατα ἑπτὰ καὶ ὀφθαλμοὺς ἑπτά, οἵ εἰσιν τὰ [ἑπτὰ] πνεύματα τοῦ θεοῦ ἀπεσταλμένοι εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν.
7 καὶ ἦλθεν καὶ εἴληφεν ἐκ τῆς δεξιᾶς τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου.
Greek to English Translation:
Revelation 5:
6 And I perceived, in the center of the throne and of the four animals, and in the center of the elders, a Lambkin standing, as though slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes which are the seven spirits of God, commissioned for the entire earth."
7 And It came and has taken the scroll out of the right hand of Him Who is sitting on the throne.
^
According to the Greek translation, they do not assign the Lamb as being a person. They specifically call the Lamb (IT)
^
So according to the Greek Translation, ONE BEING is on the Throne and a (IT) representing the Lamb comes and takes the scroll.
Therefore, the Greek is clear there is ONLY ONE BEING involved!
And I am not even sure why you are arguing the Trinity with me, I believe in the Triune God according to how the Church Fathers and how the 325 AD Nicene Creed explains it.
I believe their Biblical Materials and their understanding of God from being closer to when Christ was on Earth is far greater than the English version and 2,000 years after the fact.
They would laugh at your man made idealisms as I do!
I believe their Biblical Materials and their understanding of God from being closer to when Christ was on Earth is far greater than the English version and 2,000 years after the fact.
They would laugh at your man made idealisms as I do!
And a Creed alone is not literal Scripture. Therefore, even the Nicene Creed is man's thoughts. But their definition and your definition of the Bible are not close in many areas. This is where having more authentic Biblical Resources come into play. And I believe the Church Fathers had better materials than we do. After all, some materials have been purposefully destroyed which the Church Fathers had access to 