Will the mark alone send a person to eternal damnation?

[Guojing]

The judge ready to return as we read in James 5 in the last days.

Yep. Jesus was always pictured in the scripture as sitting at the right hand side of the Father.
Psalm 110:1 Hebrews 10:11-14

When Stephen thru the Holy Spirit, declared that he was standing, it was a picture of him ready to be sent down to Earth once again.

But alas, the Sanhedrin chose to stone Stephen and committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

You and everybody else will know exactly what they're doing when they take the mark of the beast. I won't even be here to worry about it.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Those who take the mark will be deceived.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Count the number 666 and you’ll see. There is only one way to count a number, count the number of ones, count the number of tens and count the number of hundreds.

There are a couple of ways to do that but one of those counts should stick out like a sore thumb and that’s the one that identifies the mark of the beast.

Have you considered this way of counting?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is 777
Father (7), Son (7) and Holy Spirit (7)

Father is the Holy Father who sits on the Throne in Heaven. He is 7.

father, the holy father who sits on the throne in the Vatican. He is 6.

 

[azamzimtoti]

All throughout Scripture, the twelve tribes is never a reference to the Church. You state this and then post a scripture that doesn’t even contain the term twelve tribes.

Missing the point - Peter is writing to the diaspora of the 12 tribes as was James. This is were you going wrong 146, the early church was made up of all the tribes, the Gentiles were added to the saved of the 12 tribes by adoption.

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia)

You are unable to accept that the strangers scattered are the diaspora tribes of Israel.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Strongs

G1290 diaspora dee-as-por-ah'

from G1289;

dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries.


KJV: (which are) scattered (abroad).

 

[John146]

Missing the point - Peter is writing to the diaspora of the 12 tribes as was James. This is were you going wrong 146, the early church was made up of all the tribes, the Gentiles were added to the saved of the 12 tribes by adoption.

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia)

You are unable to accept that the strangers scattered are the diaspora tribes of Israel.

View attachment 216483
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Strongs

G1290 diaspora dee-as-por-ah'

from G1289;

dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries.


KJV: (which are) scattered (abroad).

Never go outside Scripture to define Scripture. It will define itself. Just study all other usages of the term twelve tribes throughout Scripture. You will see it is always a reference to the entire nation of Israel. It is never used as a reference to believers from the twelve tribes. Ever.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Never go outside Scripture to define Scripture. It will define itself. Just study all other usages of the term twelve tribes throughout Scripture. You will see it is always a reference to the entire nation of Israel. It is never used as a reference to believers from the twelve tribes. Ever.

I'm using the scripture written by James and Peter - you just don't want to accept that.

 

[GaryA]

Maybe you missed this but I was hoping you could give an answer to this.

If a man receives the mark and worships the beast - but does not worship the image of the beast - then what?

 

[John146]

I'm using the scripture written by James and Peter - you just don't want to accept that.

Here’s all the references of the term twelve tribes. In no case does the term mean Christians. The term is always a reference to the entire nation of Israel. And you expect me to believe when we get to James, the term is referencing believers? 🤦‍♂️

Genesis 49:28
All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribesof Israel.

Exodus 28:21
And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.

Exodus 39:14
And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Joshua 3:12
Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man.

Joshua 4:8
And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the Lord spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there.

Ezekiel 47:13
Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 26:7
Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 

[azamzimtoti]

Here’s all the references of the term twelve tribes. In no case does the term mean Christians. The term is always a reference to the entire nation of Israel. And you expect me to believe when we get to James, the term is referencing believers? 🤦‍♂️

Quote all the verses you want, it ain't gonna dispute James and Peter:

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

"a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" - this is precisely the language used to define the old cast off nation.

Dispute Peter all you like - the facts are facts.

 

[John146]

Quote all the verses you want, it ain't gonna dispute James and Peter:

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

"a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" - this is precisely the language used to define the old cast off nation.

Dispute Peter all you like - the facts are facts.

I’m not willing to violate the terms of Scripture to fit any theology. Twelve tribes means the whole nation of Israel, saved and unsaved.

 

[John146]

Quote all the verses you want, it ain't gonna dispute James and Peter:

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

"a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" - this is precisely the language used to define the old cast off nation.

Dispute Peter all you like - the facts are facts.

When does Peter use the term twelve tribes?

 

[Guojing]

Quote all the verses you want, it ain't gonna dispute James and Peter:

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

"a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" - this is precisely the language used to define the old cast off nation.

Dispute Peter all you like - the facts are facts.

This reminds me of Exodus 19:4-6

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Aren't you agreeing with John146 that Peter was only writing to the Jews in his epistles, just like James when you quote that passage from Peter?

 

[azamzimtoti]

When does Peter use the term twelve tribes?

He refers to them as the diaspora - you don't want to accept the biblical usage of this:

Strongs

G1290 diaspora dee-as-por-ah'

from G1289;

dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries.


KJV: (which are) scattered (abroad).

 

[azamzimtoti]

Lets take a look at Peter's statements and where he is quoting from in Hosea:

(Hosea 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.)

(Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.)

(Hosea 1:8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.)

(Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.)

(Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God)

(Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.)


(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

This is proof positive that Peter is writing to the scattered (diaspora) northern tribes of Israel mentioned in Hosea and are the tribes he's writing to.

 

[KJV1611]

Well, the book of Romans as well as the rest of Paul’s epistles, are directly to the body of Christ, those who are in Christ. Paul instructs the Church how to live the crucified life in Christ. That’s not for lost people. Rightly dividing the word of truth is to determine which audience the doctrine applies, Jews, Gentiles or the Church of God.

Have you considered this way of counting?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is 777
Father (7), Son (7) and Holy Spirit (7)

Father is the Holy Father who sits on the Throne in Heaven. He is 7.

father, the holy father who sits on the throne in the Vatican. He is 6.

Assigning numbers to something isn't counting wouldn't you agree?

 

[KJV1611]

If a man receives the mark and worships the beast - but does not worship the image of the beast - then what?

GaryA I'm pretty sure you're a saved by grace, can't lose your salvation person. And you know that salvation is a gift from God and we didn't do anything to earn and we don't deserve it. Our works have NOTHING to do with our salvation.

If a saved person takes the mark and worships the beast and his image will he lose his salvation?
Will he suffer eternal damnation?
The answer to both is no.
Lost people suffer eternal damnation.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Is verse 10 the destiny of a believer? No.
Then who is verse 9 describing? An unsaved person.
Those two "signified" verses are preaching the exact same gospel that the rest of the bible teaches.

 

[KJV1611]

Here’s all the references of the term twelve tribes. In no case does the term mean Christians. The term is always a reference to the entire nation of Israel. And you expect me to believe when we get to James, the term is referencing believers? 🤦‍♂️

Genesis 49:28
All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribesof Israel.

Exodus 28:21
And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.

Exodus 39:14
And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Joshua 3:12
Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man.

Joshua 4:8
And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the Lord spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there.

Ezekiel 47:13
Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 26:7
Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Yeah right. Do you think the 12 twelve tribes that "served God day and night" refers to the entire nation of Israel?

Are the Jews that killed Jesus being referred to in Acts 26:7?

 

[KJV1611]

I’m not willing to violate the terms of Scripture to fit any theology. Twelve tribes means the whole nation of Israel, saved and unsaved.

Are you now admitting that ALL Israel isn't the apple of God's eye?
Are you now admitting that there are TWO ISRAEL's, 1) Saved Jews 2) Unsaved Jews.
Are you now admitting that saved Jews are "The Elect" and unsaved Jews are the enemies of the gospel?

You only need to take one more step and admit that the Israel of God (God's elect, the apple of his eye) is saved Jews and saved Gentiles. And so, ALL ISRAEL shall be saved... both the Jews and the Gentiles.

 

[KJV1611]

This reminds me of Exodus 19:4-6

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Aren't you agreeing with John146 that Peter was only writing to the Jews in his epistles, just like James when you quote that passage from Peter?

What a holy nation, totally dedicated to God. SMH

They killed God's prophets, they killed God's son, they persecuted the people who served God, they preyed on the weak and the poor, and they are the enemies of the gospel.

Are you kidding me... how can that be the "kingdom of priests and an holy nation"?

 

[John146]

He refers to them as the diaspora - you don't want to accept the biblical usage of this:

Strongs

G1290 diaspora dee-as-por-ah'

from G1289;

dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries.


KJV: (which are) scattered (abroad).

I go with the wording of the Bible, not man’s or strongs thoughts.