Requirements of Salvation

[posthuman]

No, you do wrong and defraud, and that your brethren. Are you not aware that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? (1 Corinthians 6:8-9).

So if one is conducting them self in a dangerous manner that could lead to death, and someone comes up to that person and tells them that those who behave like this will not live long; you would interpret this as a warning to someone other than this person being warned?

It would be like telling a child to ride their bike in a safe manner to avoid getting hurt but then saying, but not you, you will never get hurt. I just wanted to make you aware that other kids can get hurt.

vv. 5-6 --- they are already defeated because they are going to worldly court against each other, and this is to their shame

"defeated" does this mean lost salvation, become damned? does "to their shame" mean they are currently condemned to hell?
or does it mean they are foolish, acting in a way unbecoming & contrary to the truth of their position in Christ?
why does verse 6 call them "brother" against "brother" if they are not at all brothers, but become heathen, undredeemed? their brotherhood is a consequence of their salvation, right? if it's taken away i find it weird they are still being called this.

v. 11 -- such were some of them; with the implication that they are no longer unrighteous. yet these are "already defeated" people, so why is "were" in past tense, not present?
also in past tense in verse 11: they have been washed, sanctified, and justified. what mention is there of these being undone?

the tenor is rebuke for foolishness, not rebuke as being damned to hell by their actions. that they should not act like the wicked, because they are not -- and this sanctification, per v. 11, is from God, not from their works. the works in wisdom must ought reflect the justification that has taken place.
in fact,

v.12 -- "all things lawful" but not all things wise. this is the conclusion of the facts laid out in vv. 5-11
if the argument the apostle makes is that they have no salvation, but are wicked heretics destined for hell, why is he making this into a point about expediency instead of salvation? vv. 12-20 are all speaking of what is prudent to do, on the basis of what v. 11 says is the truth about who they have become by the work of God in them. vv. 8-9, a part of the argument, spell out what is foolish and verse 11 lays out why it is foolish in particular for them to be engaging in.

is this not the way the Spirit speaks to them through Paul throughout? expel the immoral brother in order that he might come to repentance. purge the old leaven and be unleavened, as you really are. just as in Ephesians, same gospel: walk as wise, not as unwise.
just as in Romans, "consider yourselves dead to sin" not crucify yourself to sin -- you have been crucified with Him. therefore.

the urging to walk in righteousness is not a coercion on the basis of fear of damnation here -- it is on the basis of what is discerning behavior versus what is stupid behavior, as i read it. i think that is the honest way to read this, which is consistent with the rest of the scripture -- we ought always to spur each other toward good works, but there is no fear in love, because fear has to do with condemnation. how then do we spur? not with "or else" threats of damnation -- and Paul here in the letter to Corinth isn't making threats of hell to them, however stern he is, he finishes gently, in love. don't the prophets do the same? judgement against Israel! then, but He will spare a remnant, He will have compassion, He will not cast off His people forever, but redeem them.
and 'not all Israel is Israel' -- yes? well Paul is calling the Corinthian church brother and sister, even while he rails at them. this means something, i think. that grace abounds, but not all things are expedient. therefore have expediency; let not Christ's name be sullied by our foolishness.

 

[Guojing]

Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Jesus meant that the gospel of the kingdom was not to be preached to the Gentiles. Do you accept what Jesus is saying here literally?

 

[Guojing]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein (the gospel) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:16-17

The gospel message requires one step of faith, followed by another, and another as seen in Peter's message to all that the Lord shall call. (Acts 2:38-39)

Paul can believe what he wants about being dead to the Law, and I certainly agree with him.

But Acts 21:20-25 and Acts 15 clearly indicated that James believed Jews who believe have to continue with the Law. Again, read the bible literally.

 

[Guojing]

Peter was the first to introduce the same message he had given to Jews to the Gentiles . Acts 11:14 points out that the angel of the Lord told Cornelius to send for Peter who would tell him words by which he would the saved. Peter stated that after he saw the Holy Ghost poured out upon the Gentiles who was he to withstand God. Withstand God how? He asked his fellow Jews how they could forbid water baptism to those whom God had filled with His Spirit.

Scripture indicates that Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs one time. He than tells Peter is to feed His sheep, and goes on to say, feed my sheep again. (John 21:15-17) As scripture has depth. I see a connection between Peter "feeding" the salvation message first to the Jews who would be considered sheep. Then assisting in the Samaritans conversion; they being half-Jewish would constitute them as being sheep as well. And, lastly, the Gentiles who would be considered lambs due to the recent arrival into God's plan of salvation.

OT prophetic timetable was always based on Israel having to accept their King first, before they can be a kingdom of priests to reach the other nations. That is based on Exodus 19:4-6. That was why water baptism was required for them.

Because you don't rightly divide the word, you assume that water baptism was also part of the program for Paul's gospel of grace.

 

[Guojing]

Speaking of 1Cor 10...
1 Corinthians 10:11 KJV
[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Yes, I do learn a lot from the things happened to Jews. My point was that God only sees 3 groups of people when he looks down on the Earth, and those 3 groups are clearly spelt out in that verse.

 

[posthuman]

cleanse the lepers

Naaman the Syrian.

no one had ever been healed of leprosy but him, before God pitched His tent among men. he is not a Jew, nor even a proselyte. we'll sup with him at the wedding feast of the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world.

the law was a school master to lead to Christ; eternal life is to know Him. when He is standing among you, you don't have to go through a schoolmaster to know Him: you only need to set your eyes on Him.

 

[Guojing]

Naaman the Syrian.

So you are saying Jesus did not meant what he said to the 12 in that passage?

 

[posthuman]

So you are saying Jesus did not meant what he said to the 12 in that passage?

why in the world would you think it follows that Christ is a liar just because after holding out His arms all day to a stubborn and disobedient people, He made Himself found by those who did not seek Him?

the Centurion of great faith. the Gibeonites. Rahab. the sheep He has of other folds; the one flock and one Shepherd.

Romans 1:16. one gospel, preached first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles. i am not ashamed of this, Guojing. i am not ashamed to call anathema Jews come from James who preached another gospel. no other name but Jesus, not even Moses.

 

[Guojing]

why in the world would you think it follows that Christ is a liar just because after holding out His arms all day to a stubborn and disobedient people, He made Himself found by those who did not seek Him?

the Centurion of great faith. the Gibeonites. Rahab. the sheep He has of other folds, and there will be one flock and one Shepherd.

Romans 1:16. one gospel, preached first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles. i am not ashamed of this, Guojing. i am not ashamed to call anathema Jews come from James who preached another gospel.

So you do agree that the gospel of the kingdom is not to be preached to Gentiles during the time when Jesus was in his earthly ministry. A simple yes would suffice, instead of confusing us with the example of Naaman.

Next, regarding the importance of the Law of Moses in the gospel of the kingdom, which you previously indicated it was not necessary during the same earthly ministry. Let's go to Matthew again, chapter 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus was telling all the Jews that the Law continue to be valid for them during his earthly ministry, while he and the 12 were preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

I trust that you will accept what Jesus was saying literally here?

 

[posthuman]

So you do agree that the gospel of the kingdom is not to be preached to Gentiles during the time when Jesus was

That's nonsense. There's only one gospel. The Lamb.
John 4. The time is coming and now is - spoken to a Samaritan. To a Roman, are you The King? 'you have said it'
To who else did He say plainly "I am the Messiah'?

 

[Guojing]

That's nonsense. There's only one gospel. The Lamb.
John 4. The time is coming and now us - spoken to a Samaritan. To a Roman, are you The King? 'you have said it'

So back to my original question, do you think Jesus meant exactly what he stated in Matthew 10:5?

 

[hornetguy]

John 20:31 states that a Jew who believes Jesus as the son of God during the gospel of the kingdom is already born again.

Peter James and John were all saved under that

I'm not sure that is correct. He said that those that believe in Jesus "may" be born again... not "will" or "shall" be born again. To me that sounds conditional upon what else they do, beyond believing in Jesus. I don't think that belief, by itself, will put anybody in a position of salvation. I could be wrong, but I have never heard this stated before.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not sure that is correct. He said that those that believe in Jesus "may" be born again... not "will" or "shall" be born again. To me that sounds conditional upon what else they do, beyond believing in Jesus. I don't think that belief, by itself, will put anybody in a position of salvation. I could be wrong, but I have never heard this stated before.

You are actually correct but I didn't want to bring that up because it would be deviating from the question I was asked by crossnote and posthuman.

But yes, let me explain further now to you. Remember what Peter told the Jews in Acts 2:38? Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins? I can agree with your interpretation that he is not saying those sins are remitted the moment they repent.

But in Acts 3, he finally tells national Israel when will their sins finally be remitted.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Since the world began, the OT prophecy under the Gospel of the Kingdom indicated that the Jews' sins are only blotted out/remitted, when the times of refreshing shall come, and the next verse explains, when Jesus is sent back to Earth to finally usher Israel into the promised kingdom.

So yes I agree with you there, for the Jews under the gospel of the kingdom, they are only finally born again when the kingdom begins on Earth.

The main difference between that and for us under Paul's gospel, we are immeditately born again the moment we believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus also said in Matthew 25:30
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (vs. 27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and lazy and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This lazy so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. *Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved.

*Leviticus 25:55 - For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

*Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

Whether you do it out of love for God, for treasure in Heaven, or simply because you don't want to end up hell because you weren't a profitable servant, it matters not. All that matters is that we see that there are works required of God to enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

They are not any righteous works we thought up ourselves but simply obeying the commandments and precepts taught in God's holy words in the Holy Bible. There is a standard of righteous and holy living that God requires of us to enter the kingdom of God. That righteous live is only done through obeying God's commandments, namely found in the NT.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

 

[BlessedCreator]

If you live to please yourself, knowingly and willfully doing things you know God doesnt want you to be doing, you will perish.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

My comment related to our need to follow Peter's instructions given on the Day of Pentecost in order to be receive the spiritual rebirth. Following these instructions is separate from our conduct as born again believers.

After being spiritually reborn, the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the newly born Christian to walk in God's ways. Does the newborn child of God still deal with unintentional sin due to their corrupted flesh? Yes. However, as children of God their unintentional sinful behavior can be forgiven through repentant prayer.

I agree that judgement of a believer will be related to their conduct after their spiritual rebirth.

I don't believe that a person has a spiritual rebirth at their baptism. I think Christ was the only One who received the Holy Spirit at His baptism.
For the rest of us, baptism is a public deceleration that we have died to our old self and we've been raised back to life in Christ. I'm just trying to make sure that I understand you correctly, you seem to suggest that we have a spiritual rebirth at our baptism. I believe that we're regenerated and born again before our baptism, then we seek to be baptized to show the world that we are God's people.

 

[Wansvic]

Paul can believe what he wants about being dead to the Law, and I certainly agree with him.

But Acts 21:20-25 and Acts 15 clearly indicated that James believed Jews who believe have to continue with the Law. Again, read the bible literally.

Your understanding that James believes Jewish people have to follow the OT law is not what is conveyed in the scriptures you present.

Both Acts 15 and 21:20-25, reference a discussion that gave clarification to what was mandated of all NT believers.

A sect of Pharisees, depicted as NT believers themselves, did not question the reality of the requirements of the NT conversion that was first conveyed by Peter to both Jews and Gentiles. However, they contended it was incomplete without circumcision and following the OT law as well.

Peter states there is no difference in what is required of Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 15:5-9)

During the conversation James mentions the words of the prophets found in Amos 9:11-12. The prophesy expresses that there would be a portion of Jewish people and all the heathen (Gentiles) upon whom the Lord’s name is called that would readily accept the NT mandate. (Acts 15:13-17)

James goes on to outline requirements for the Gentile believers; circumcision was not included. He then mentions how long preaching of the OT law of Moses had been going on in the cities. This would seem to indicate that James saw no need to offend the believing Jews concerning their continued attempts to adhere to the OT law as well.

 

[Wansvic]

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Jesus meant that the gospel of the kingdom was not to be preached to the Gentiles. Do you accept what Jesus is saying here literally?

It was a matter of timing; who must hear it first. Not total exclusion of Gentiles. The gospel was preached to the Jewish population first. Due to the Jews rejecting their Messiah, the door of salvation was open to the Gentiles as well.

Paul's comment in Romans expresses that point:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16)

 

[Wansvic]

I don't believe that a person has a spiritual rebirth at their baptism. I think Christ was the only One who received the Holy Spirit at His baptism.
For the rest of us, baptism is a public deceleration that we have died to our old self and we've been raised back to life in Christ. I'm just trying to make sure that I understand you correctly, you seem to suggest that we have a spiritual rebirth at our baptism. I believe that we're regenerated and born again before our baptism, then we seek to be baptized to show the world that we are God's people.

Peters instructions to those who believed his message regarding Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, included repentance, water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) These same instructions were given to Samaritans and Gentiles. (Acts 8:12-17 and 10:44-48)

Jesus' statement in John 3:5 "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." parallels the instructions given by Peter.

There is a natural as well as a spiritual birthing process. The natural process includes both coming out of the water's of the womb and receiving the breath of life in one's initial intake of air. If either does not take place the baby is stillborn. The spiritual parallel is seen in one's coming up out of the water after being buried into Jesus' death spiritually in water baptism, and receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost into one's body.

Remember the word of God says man is without excuse because spiritual principles can be clearly seen in God's creation. (Romans 1:20)

 

[Guojing]

It was a matter of timing; who must hear it first. Not total exclusion of Gentiles. The gospel was preached to the Jewish population first. Due to the Jews rejecting their Messiah, the door of salvation was open to the Gentiles as well.

Paul's comment in Romans expresses that point:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16)

Yes, as I have said to you, the OT timetable was always national Israel must accept Jesus as their Messiah first, before the other nations could be reached. (Zechariah 8:3-23)

Paul was no longer preaching the gospel of the kingdom by the time he wrote Romans, the gospel of Christ he was referring to there was the gospel of grace that the ascended Christ revealed to him in Galatians 1.