Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!
- Thread starter Elderdave
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How so?
The Pharisees wanted to condemn people without mercy for perceived violations of the law without righteous judgment (according to how they appeared).
The Pharisees told people how they should act, but themselves would not act accordingly.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of doing miracles by the prince of the devils.
The Pharisees wanted to look righteous outwardly, but inwardly were full of wickedness.
And so on...
The Pharisees wanted to condemn people without mercy for perceived violations of the law without righteous judgment (according to how they appeared).
The Pharisees told people how they should act, but themselves would not act accordingly.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of doing miracles by the prince of the devils.
The Pharisees wanted to look righteous outwardly, but inwardly were full of wickedness.
And so on...
Jesus said that the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat and therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but not to do after their works: for they say, and do not.
First strike against the Pharisees: Hypocrisy.
Jesus came to take away our sins by faith (Something the law could not do). I do not teach you are saved by obedience.
I say what the scriptures say; Once we receive the atonement that Christ provides, we are to walk according to Jesus' commandments (John 14:15). And these commandments are God's (John 3:34). The apostles commandments are God's as well (1 Thessalonians 4:2).
He did not come to take away are responsibility to do good works. He came to take away our sins.
So having these promises, we should:
Cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1).
With OSAS there's nothing to fear. And as a result of no fear, you will not stop sinning because:
By the fear of the LORD men depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6).
First strike against the Pharisees: Hypocrisy.
Jesus came to take away our sins by faith (Something the law could not do). I do not teach you are saved by obedience.
I say what the scriptures say; Once we receive the atonement that Christ provides, we are to walk according to Jesus' commandments (John 14:15). And these commandments are God's (John 3:34). The apostles commandments are God's as well (1 Thessalonians 4:2).
He did not come to take away are responsibility to do good works. He came to take away our sins.
So having these promises, we should:
Cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1).
With OSAS there's nothing to fear. And as a result of no fear, you will not stop sinning because:
By the fear of the LORD men depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6).
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1. You keep missing the point, You can go ahead and try to tear down the pharisees as sinners. Thats fine, They were sinners. as we all are, but that does not explain their gospel. How they THOUGHT they related to God and God related to them.
2. Your right, With OSAS their is no fear. And thats the way God intended it.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
You want to put people back under bondage, Under fear. That is exactly where Satan wants us, To fear God. and not see him as the loving father he is. Because if he gets us in this position. We either have to deny our sin, and learn to attack others and their sins to make us feel good about ourselves and not fear (like the pharisee did)
Or we have to be brought to the truth, we just can not live up to Gods standard. and either repent and come to Gods true saving grace, or give up and walk away all together. Which sadly, for legalistic "christians" (I use the term lightly) most go the second way, because it has pushed into their thinking so deep that Grace believers love sin, Hate God and just want an easy out. And secondly, Because you feel so guilty about your inability to meet Gods standard, and people pushing you, telling you you just do not have enough faith. You think to yourself. God will never forgive you so why bother. Your a failure
This is the danger of legalistic thinking.
2. Your right, With OSAS their is no fear. And thats the way God intended it.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
You want to put people back under bondage, Under fear. That is exactly where Satan wants us, To fear God. and not see him as the loving father he is. Because if he gets us in this position. We either have to deny our sin, and learn to attack others and their sins to make us feel good about ourselves and not fear (like the pharisee did)
Or we have to be brought to the truth, we just can not live up to Gods standard. and either repent and come to Gods true saving grace, or give up and walk away all together. Which sadly, for legalistic "christians" (I use the term lightly) most go the second way, because it has pushed into their thinking so deep that Grace believers love sin, Hate God and just want an easy out. And secondly, Because you feel so guilty about your inability to meet Gods standard, and people pushing you, telling you you just do not have enough faith. You think to yourself. God will never forgive you so why bother. Your a failure
This is the danger of legalistic thinking.
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This is not true.
I want people to listen to the scripture and stop listening to nonsensical doctrines.
Satan loves the fact that you don’t fear God. That’s been his goal; You shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. The kind of fear the scriptures you quoted relate to fear of things in the world; not the fear of God. The fear of God is constant in scripture; it’s soo constant that many try to say it means “awe” or “an attitude of worship”.
I’ll repost what Paul wrote;
2 Corinthians 7:1
[1] Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
And:
Ephesians 6:5
[5] Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ
I want people to listen to the scripture and stop listening to nonsensical doctrines.
Satan loves the fact that you don’t fear God. That’s been his goal; You shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. The kind of fear the scriptures you quoted relate to fear of things in the world; not the fear of God. The fear of God is constant in scripture; it’s soo constant that many try to say it means “awe” or “an attitude of worship”.
I’ll repost what Paul wrote;
2 Corinthians 7:1
[1] Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
And:
Ephesians 6:5
[5] Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ
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That word means reverence.
I revere my father,
I do not fear him
he has given me the rest he promised, I was weary and heavy laden and he gave me rest
You want to live in fear. That’s on you.
but those of us who have been given Gods spirit come to him as our Abba, I pray you learn what that means
I revere my father,
I do not fear him
he has given me the rest he promised, I was weary and heavy laden and he gave me rest
You want to live in fear. That’s on you.
but those of us who have been given Gods spirit come to him as our Abba, I pray you learn what that means
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Let's talk about you.
1. You claim you speak with the authority of God. That is "delusions of grandeur." No person today can claim that. Your spelling mistakes alone point to your imperfections!
2. You have labeled yourself a "true elder in Christ." Another grandiose claim to authority which no person can claim. You also claim you are one of God's anointed ones. Very self exalting!
3. You claim to have Christ's teaching, another grandiose claim. Do you know such grandiosity is found in diseases like schizophrenia or bipolar mania? Sorry, all these claims point you your lack of credibility. Besides, Christ showed me the devastation and ruin that believing you can lose your salvation. Someone I know well is the most bereft Christian I know. They literally feel they have lost their salvation every day. It is an enemy of growing in Christ.
God started showing me that he would, "Never leave me or forsake me." Hebrews 13:5.
God showed me that he is the one who saves us, not by works.
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:9-9
And many more verses. In Seminary, we studied Arminian vs Reformed soteriology, and in between. Almost every professor and student believed in eternal security.
For me, believing you can lose your salvation undermines the power and sovereignty of God. Your posts show that is what is going on with you. You claim to be a super elder with the authority of God. This is delusional, and shows a complete lack of understanding of who God is. You cannot save yourself, nor maintain your salvation.
God sovereignly saves us and promises to keep us,
"and that is why I suffer these things. But I am not ashamed, because I know the One I have believed in and am persuaded that He is able to guard what has been entrusted to me until that day." 2 Tim 1:12
God has promised to keep sanctifying us till Jesus returns.
"For I am sure of this very thing, that the one who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6
I pray God will heal you of this terrible delusion that you know more than so many great Reformed scholars, and many other who know the Bible says that God will never cast us away.
I'm not going to say that your are not saved because of your weak soteriology, because it is God who saves, and it I certainly am not God, just someone who has studied to show myself approved, and that I am someone who loves God as he first loved me!
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20
1. You claim you speak with the authority of God. That is "delusions of grandeur." No person today can claim that. Your spelling mistakes alone point to your imperfections!
2. You have labeled yourself a "true elder in Christ." Another grandiose claim to authority which no person can claim. You also claim you are one of God's anointed ones. Very self exalting!
3. You claim to have Christ's teaching, another grandiose claim. Do you know such grandiosity is found in diseases like schizophrenia or bipolar mania? Sorry, all these claims point you your lack of credibility. Besides, Christ showed me the devastation and ruin that believing you can lose your salvation. Someone I know well is the most bereft Christian I know. They literally feel they have lost their salvation every day. It is an enemy of growing in Christ.
God started showing me that he would, "Never leave me or forsake me." Hebrews 13:5.
God showed me that he is the one who saves us, not by works.
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:9-9
And many more verses. In Seminary, we studied Arminian vs Reformed soteriology, and in between. Almost every professor and student believed in eternal security.
For me, believing you can lose your salvation undermines the power and sovereignty of God. Your posts show that is what is going on with you. You claim to be a super elder with the authority of God. This is delusional, and shows a complete lack of understanding of who God is. You cannot save yourself, nor maintain your salvation.
God sovereignly saves us and promises to keep us,
"and that is why I suffer these things. But I am not ashamed, because I know the One I have believed in and am persuaded that He is able to guard what has been entrusted to me until that day." 2 Tim 1:12
God has promised to keep sanctifying us till Jesus returns.
"For I am sure of this very thing, that the one who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6
I pray God will heal you of this terrible delusion that you know more than so many great Reformed scholars, and many other who know the Bible says that God will never cast us away.
I'm not going to say that your are not saved because of your weak soteriology, because it is God who saves, and it I certainly am not God, just someone who has studied to show myself approved, and that I am someone who loves God as he first loved me!
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20
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you obviously have NOT read my study! there are 38 new testament passages that clearly state that a true believer can lose their salvation! And i also address the scriptures that are used by you and others to maintain a false doctrine. click on the attachment and read the Holy Spirits study in this! all is explained there!
David
David
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You are wrong on so many levels! I have told you the truth about me. If you will read the Holy Spirits doctrine that i have attached, you will see clearly that your doctrine is clearly false! The new testament clearly refutes your twisting of scriptures! PLEASE read it before your respond again! For you desperately need to be educated on this topic! And i answer ALL of your arguments in the study!
David
David
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Did you even read the references I gave? There are 3 tenses of salvation. When you track these subjects through the Bible, Its clearly referring to our threefold nature of spirit, soul and body.
You're right, It doesn't "say" this, just like it doesn't say "Trinity". But Scripture does teach the principle of a multi-faceted sanctification. There are 2 sanctifying works, and 1 sanctifying process. The moment of being born again entails a sanctifying work
Then why does God tell us to fear Him?
I read your document and I see a lot of commentary using the word "salvation". But none of the verses about falling away use the word "salvation". You have to demonstrate why you think those verses are referring to salvation, instead of just stating that they are.
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