CESSATIONISM AND HEALING

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Sep 14, 2019
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Well, its better to finish here. Do what you want. Its your responsibillity what you are preaching. But dont think that you please God with that. I am glad that God is different to that what you are teaching.
Hope and pray that you will find the truth one day.
Some christians trust in Christ's atonement to be saved from God's wrath.

But when it comes to healing from sicknesses, they trust in doctors, gifted healers and the prayer of elders. But God is pleased only when an individual christian trusts Him for healing promised through Christ's atonement (Without faith it is impossible to please God) as in Isaiah 53:4 & Mathew 8:17. Thus they commit apostasy in the area of healing and stray away from grace.

And moving outside of the grace of atonement, they are moving from confidence in Christ to confidence in self/doctor/
gifted-healer/elders. Catholics do exactly the same by trusting in the prayers (intercessions) of mary & the saints. On the other hand, the woman in Mathew 9:22 was healed by "her" faith & not through intermediaries like doctors/gifted-healers/elders.

Why live like catholics?

It is you who has to find the truth of faith which pleases. You are terribly displeasing God.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Some christians trust in Christ's atonement to be saved from God's wrath.

But when it comes to healing from sicknesses, they trust in doctors, gifted healers and the prayer of elders. But God is pleased only when an individual christian trusts Him for healing promised through Christ's atonement (Without faith it is impossible to please God) as in Isaiah 53:4 & Mathew 8:17. Thus they commit apostasy in the area of healing and stray away from grace.

And moving outside of the grace of atonement, they are moving from confidence in Christ to confidence in self/doctor/
gifted-healer/elders. Catholics do exactly the same by trusting in the prayers (intercessions) of mary & the saints. On the other hand, the woman in Mathew 9:22 was healed by "her" faith & not through intermediaries like doctors/gifted-healers/elders.

Why live like catholics?

It is you who has to find the truth of faith which pleases. You are terribly displeasing God.
Is that why the apostle Paul traveled with and was attended to by his personal physician Luke, who accompanied him and treated him whersoever he went? I think not.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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The sign TO her was that she KNEW she had been healed...
It wasn´t a visible sign, sir...but it was a sign never the less.

Her faith, her reaching out saying to herself, if I can only touch the hem of HIS robe...healed her...fully....and not just physically...her faith was in HIM as THE HEALER...the ONE who heals...

Jesus needed to know who had touched HIM...It´s Jesus who heals, sir...and HIS healing to this woman was prior to HIS CRUCIFIXION...

Even the man with many demons was healed prior to the LORD´s CRUCIFIXION, sir...

The sign they received was their healing.
But, after they were healed...they did not walk away...they did not claim HIS BLOOD and leave HIM...in fact, the man with many demons wanted to leave the community he could have gone back to, and follow HIM...

But how sir...how will any man know to call on HIM, if they do not know HIM...further, there are many who are not physically ill, who think they are well-healed...and they do not call on HIM either...and they are sick and do not know they need a physician to begin with..

How do you reconcile both, sir...those who are physically ill who should call on HIM and those who seem to be physically healed, but are sick...and should also call on HIM...

Or, do you only look on the outer as some sort of sign, by a physical ailment, that one is not healed.

Because, sir...there ARE even those who are physically ill, but still....FULLY HEALED...
Simply because one is healed doesn't mean he is given a sign. In what state a person receives healing decides whether the healing is a sign or not.
Thus if a person receives healing with faith as Jesus declares in Mathew 9:22, the healing is not a sign. And if the person receives healing without faith, the healing is indeed a sign.

You are confusing between knowledge of Christ and faith in Christ. Simply because a person doesn't know more of Christ doesn't mean he cannot have faith and his healing would necessarily constitute a sign.

Simply because a person has faith doesn't mean he need not grow in faith by growing in knowledge of Christ. The woman in Mathew 9:22 had faith to be healed. But many christians are spoiled to trust in doctors/gifted-healers/prayers of elders in order to be healed. This is what Catholics do!

Both salvation of soul and physical healing is from God's sovereignty through faith. A person without faith in any area is sick and not healthy in that area. Claims of sovereignty without faith is meaningless.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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Is that why the apostle Paul traveled with and was attended to by his personal physician Luke, who accompanied him and treated him whersoever he went? I think not.
Paul was not always accompanied by Luke. And your assumption he accompanied to treat paul is not biblical.

Did Jesus & the Apostles say "As faith to heal will cease in the NT era, construct plenty of hospitals as God can heal only through doctors?

Further, healing is clearly included in Christ's atonement as stated in Isaiah 53:4 & emphasised in Mathew 8:17. So if someone is not guaranteed of healing, his faith is little and needs to grow.
- Even after God has revealed His willingness to heal through Christ's atonement, justifying sicknesses using God's sovereignty is only a cover up for the little faith and shows reluctance to grow in faith. Talk of sovereignty without faith is empty as sovereignty works through faith.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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But when it comes to healing from sicknesses, they trust in doctors, gifted healers and the prayer of elders.
If you are suggesting that God does not uses these agents of healing, then you are clearly mistaken.

Why do you think God has provided a multitude of medicinal plants and herbs if not for healing. And why do you think the Bible makes this statement: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2).

While God is the ultimate Healer, He uses means of healing available to men, as He did in the case of Hezekiah: And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered... For Isaiah had said, Let them take a lump of figs, and lay it for a plaister upon the boil, and he shall recover. (2 Kings 20:7; Isa 38:21)

Quinine is a good example of God's provision for healing through natural substances.
"Quinine was first isolated in 1820 from the bark of a cinchona tree, which is native to Peru. Bark extracts had been used to treat malaria since at least 1632 and it was introduced to Spain as early as 1636 by Jesuit missionaries from the New World."

When Christ was on earth, that was a very unique time for healings. After that the apostles and their companions were also healers, but not indefinitely either (as we know from the epistles of Paul). Therefore God uses many agencies for healing.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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who said she was called that(unbeliever)? First OFF HOW DID SHE KNOW ABOUT JESUS >?

Mark 5:27 says "When she heard about Jesus, "

What did this woman hear? She heard about Him healing witch gave her faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Many churches spoil christians by always praying for them. Instead they have to teach them faith so they start to pray for themselves by faith! Why?

Being prayed for isn't faith. Instead faith is trusting God and praying to Him for one's own healing in the absence of external support.

Genuineness of faith is seen in the absence of support especially from the local church. That is why Gods sends persecution and breaks apart the local churches. Local churches, gifted healers & medical doctors etc become long term unnecessary crutches which eventually weaken the limbs of faith.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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If you are suggesting that God does not uses these agents of healing, then you are clearly mistaken.

Why do you think God has provided a multitude of medicinal plants and herbs if not for healing. And why do you think the Bible makes this statement: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2).

While God is the ultimate Healer, He uses means of healing available to men, as He did in the case of Hezekiah: And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered... For Isaiah had said, Let them take a lump of figs, and lay it for a plaister upon the boil, and he shall recover. (2 Kings 20:7; Isa 38:21)

Quinine is a good example of God's provision for healing through natural substances.
"Quinine was first isolated in 1820 from the bark of a cinchona tree, which is native to Peru. Bark extracts had been used to treat malaria since at least 1632 and it was introduced to Spain as early as 1636 by Jesuit missionaries from the New World."

When Christ was on earth, that was a very unique time for healings. After that the apostles and their companions were also healers, but not indefinitely either (as we know from the epistles of Paul). Therefore God uses many agencies for healing.
Are you saying faith (trusting in Christ's atonement for healing) cannot necessarily heal people without the agencies you stated?
 
Sep 14, 2019
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Just another remark..it appears like you are an Indian who is living in Greece.

If so, India is one of the areas where fake health, wealth, and prosperity teachers have propagated a false gospel. That is unfortunate. Individuals who are in the poorest countries are some of the most susceptible victims of fake teachers.
James 2:5 "Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?"

So stop bragging about riches. Repent and believe.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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I'm not sure I understand the points you are trying to make.

Firstly, Christ has redeemed his creation through the atonement. He reverses the effect of the Curse. However, this is not fully consummated until his return. At his return, the resurrection of believers will occur, and this will reverse the effect of the Curse upon their bodies.

Fat, balding, eyeglass-wearing, hearing-aid using, greying Christians attest to the fact that every man experiences the effects of the Curse, until the resurrection.

Their aging and decaying bodies expose their folly. Their preachers fill their face with botox to hide the wrinkles. They are fakes.

Their lying doctrines actually cause Christianity to be portrayed as foolish to non-believers, and causes the name of God to be blasphemed.

Additionally, they encourage Christians to give a false witness. The first chapter of Job reveals that Satan accuses believers in regards to following God only for what they can get out of Him, not love. God responds by allowing Satan to torment Job with all kinds of suffering. Job does not reject God in the face of such suffering. Therefore, Satan is proven a liar, because true believers do not pursue a deeper relationship with God only for the benefits he provides. Fake believers might do this, but not true believers.

The faith chapter, in Hebrews 11, lists many people who suffered and did not experience the kinds of rewards that people in these sorts of movements clamor for. They suffered without receiving the reward, and were commended by God for this. They are commended by God in this chapter for their faith. And many of them did not receive what they were looking for, in terms of reward, even to their death.

Additionally, it doesn't take much reading of the Bible to see that salvation in its fullest sense is achieved at Christ's return. There is an already-but-not-yet aspect to salvation, and this salvation includes giving life to moral bodies. See Romans 8.

Regarding suffering being seen as an opportunity for faith to grow, I agree with that. Ultimately, the believer may suffer until the end of his days with various health conditions and other situations. If you are saying that he reaches a certain point where he will be healed in this life, and that he must somehow develop enough faith for that to happen, I disagree with you totally. It may be God's will for him to suffer with this condtion, because it is through weakness that God's strength is more clearly displayed in the suffering individual. In human weakness, God's strength is more fully revealed.

Unfortunately, false ministries have exported their trashy theology throughout the world, and are making a lot of false claims concerning guarantees of healing. This leads to unmet expectations in a lot of people. It is common that such individuals are told that they should be healed immediately, if they had enough faith to be healed, so the fault is theirs. This is a false teaching and those that teach it are false teachers.

God may heal some individuals, and I believe he does according to his sovereign will. He knows what is best for the person spiritually.

By the way, one of the most spiritual people I know suffered great hardships. It makes me sick that Word of Faith people would claim that she wasn't very spiritual or she would have been healed. They are so shallow, that they do not understand that her continued faithfulness to God was more visible due to her suffering. In that manner, she was like Job.
That which reverses the curse is not the day of consummation but Christ's atonement. Believe for healing rather than excuse yourself over your little faith.

Don't look to fat, balding christians to create a false theology but rather look to Jesus with faith.

Faith pleases God (Hebrews11:6) not your sicknesses! If so, he would've created adam and eve with sicknesses.

If you want to remain sick, go ahead & remain sick. But don't make it a doctrine and discourage other christians who want to be healed, by distorting Hebrews chapter 11.

Don't confuse between bodily redemption and healing by faith. This topic is on healing by faith in Christ's atonement (Isaiah 53:4; Mathew 8:17).

Remember, there are "consequences" for refusal to believe in Christ's atonement. Don't confuse those "consequences" with genuine suffering which helps to grow in faith because that confusion is trash theology.

Sovereignty works through faith. Talk of sovereignty without faith is trash.

Suffering hardship without faith Christ's atonement saves from the hardship is trash.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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Thats the point. He cant. This may not his fault.
But to lay the burden on the sick is a terrible message.
Teaching christians to believe in Christ's atonement doesn't mean placing burden on them. You pray for people and make them depend on you like Catholics who depend on the intercession of saints! Don't deceive christians.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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Sudakar needs to quit passing the buck, and just get out there and heal these people with his own tremendous brimming faith!
Don't spoil christians by always praying for them. Instead teach them faith so they start to pray for themselves by faith! Being prayed for isn't faith. Instead faith is trusting God and praying to Him for one's own healing in the absence of external support.

Genuineness of faith is seen in the absence of support especially from the local church. That is why Gods sends persecution and breaks apart the local churches.

Local churches, gifted healers & medical doctors etc become long term unnecessary crutches which eventually weaken the limbs of faith.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The sign TO her was that she KNEW she had been healed...
It wasn´t a visible sign, sir...but it was a sign never the less.

Her faith, her reaching out saying to herself, if I can only touch the hem of HIS robe...healed her...fully....and not just physically...her faith was in HIM as THE HEALER...the ONE who heals...

Jesus needed to know who had touched HIM...It´s Jesus who heals, sir...and HIS healing to this woman was prior to HIS CRUCIFIXION...

Even the man with many demons was healed prior to the LORD´s CRUCIFIXION, sir...

The sign they received was their healing.
But, after they were healed...they did not walk away...they did not claim HIS BLOOD and leave HIM...in fact, the man with many demons wanted to leave the community he could have gone back to, and follow HIM...

But how sir...how will any man know to call on HIM, if they do not know HIM...further, there are many who are not physically ill, who think they are well-healed...and they do not call on HIM either...and they are sick and do not know they need a physician to begin with..

How do you reconcile both, sir...those who are physically ill who should call on HIM and those who seem to be physically healed, but are sick...and should also call on HIM...

Or, do you only look on the outer as some sort of sign, by a physical ailment, that one is not healed.

Because, sir...there ARE even those who are physically ill, but still....FULLY HEALED...
I agree we walk by the unseen no such things a sign as a outward sign gift. Temporal healing is not the gospel .

The who touched me had a different purpose it did not take him by surprise .
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Don't spoil christians by always praying for them. Instead teach them faith so they start to pray for themselves by faith! Being prayed for isn't faith. Instead faith is trusting God and praying to Him for one's own healing in the absence of external support.

Genuineness of faith is seen in the absence of support especially from the local church. That is why Gods sends persecution and breaks apart the local churches.

Local churches, gifted healers & medical doctors etc become long term unnecessary crutches which eventually weaken the limbs of faith.
You have been watching too much Benny Hinn buddy. Or listening to too much Charles Capps.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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That which reverses the curse is not the day of consummation but Christ's atonement. Believe for healing rather than excuse yourself over your little faith.

Don't look to fat, balding christians to create a false theology but rather look to Jesus with faith.

Faith pleases God (Hebrews11:6) not your sicknesses! If so, he would've created adam and eve with sicknesses.

If you want to remain sick, go ahead & remain sick. But don't make it a doctrine and discourage other christians who want to be healed, by distorting Hebrews chapter 11.

Don't confuse between bodily redemption and healing by faith. This topic is on healing by faith in Christ's atonement (Isaiah 53:4; Mathew 8:17).

Remember, there are "consequences" for refusal to believe in Christ's atonement. Don't confuse those "consequences" with genuine suffering which helps to grow in faith because that confusion is trash theology.

Sovereignty works through faith. Talk of sovereignty without faith is trash.

Suffering hardship without faith Christ's atonement saves from the hardship is trash.
I knew a woman who attended a church called Glory Barn run by a guy that believed like you. His name was Hobart Freeman.

As a result of her "faith" she didn't wear glasses for about six years, so she was unable to drive during that period of time. Finally, she wised up that she was following a nut and left his church. Then she could drive again.

Hobart Freeman himself died at age 64 due to his refusal to seek medical care.

In the meantime, though, people in his church were laying out dead kids alongside live kids, expecting them to be resurrected through the transfer of life that they claimed would occur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart_Freeman

Here's a summary of their controversies:


At a meeting of the County Board of Health on October 23, 1974, Barbara Clouse, the Health Nurse for Kosciusko County was concerned that the Glory Barn was a major health problem and it would only get worse. She detailed her concerns, saying that:

Diabetics were not taking their insulin and pregnant women were receiving no pre-natal or post-natal care. ... They are laying dead babies and live babies next to each other on the altars and praying over them to get the live babies to bring life back to the dead ones. There was one woman in our county praying over a baby for four days before the funeral home got hold of it.[35]
Clouse's concerns were later supported by local hospital statistics for 1975/6, which suggested that women from the congregation who gave birth at home were over 60 times more likely to die than those who gave birth at hospital under medical supervision. Later assessment by the US Department of Health and Human Services supported this conclusion.[36] Deaths of several women, infants and babies were reported, and the local media blamed Freeman's teachings as medical treatment had been declined or refused.[37]

Deaths continued to be reported to the frustration of county law enforcement officials.[38]

Shortly after they were publicized, the old Glory Barn burnt down in the early hours of July 4, 1980. Six people escaped from the burning two-story barn. Two youngsters, Joel and Lee, suffered burns before they were rescued from their bedrooms by their father Brendan Wahl. The boys' mother, Peggy Wahl (née Nusbaum), also claims to have been involved in their rescue, along with their daughter Penny who was not injured[citation needed]. Fire brigades from North Webster, Syracuse and Cromwell fought the blaze for some two hours until dawn, and the fire was subsequently investigated by the Noble County Police and Indiana State Fire Marshal. North Webster fire officials described the fire as of "suspicious origin".[39] To date no culprit has been charged.

In May 1983, the Chicago Tribune ran a story on David Gilmore whose 15-month-old son, Dustin Graham, had died five years previously from an easily treatable form of meningitis. Following church teaching, Gilmore and his wife had relied solely on prayer for their son's healing. Gilmore said he knew of twelve other children who had died under similar circumstances. The Tribune further identified fifty-two deaths from Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio and Kentucky which, they asserted, were attributable to church teaching. A few months later, ABC television's Nightline reported that pregnant women following church teaching died at a rate eight times the national average and their children at three times. Nightline further identified nineteen states and five countries where deaths had occurred which, they asserted, were attributable to church teaching.[40]

Eventually, Hobart Freeman was charged with aiding and abetting one of these deaths by what was described as "negligent homicide".[41] At least ninety members of the congregation died during Freeman's ministry,[42] which Daniel McConnell described as tragic and preventable.[43]

Here's the account of his death:


Death[edit]
Two weeks before this matter was to come to court, Freeman died at his Shoe Lake home of bronchial pneumonia and congestive heart failure complicated by an ulcerated gangrenous leg, which in the weeks preceding had forced him to preach sitting down. He had refused all medical help,[44] even to the removal of the bandages so his leg could be cleaned.[45]

Previously in Faith for Healing, Freeman had said that "To claim healing for the body and then to continue to take medicine is not following our faith with corresponding action ... When genuine faith is present, it alone will be sufficient for it will take the place of medicines and other aids." [46]

Freeman's death was not reported for at least 13 hours due to an all-night prayer vigil for his resurrection. He was buried in a pine box with no public viewing and no graveside or memorial service.[47] For some time afterwards, his wife, June Freeman (d. 29 January 2000), left his suit over the end of the bed, expecting him to one day walk in and have need of it.[45] She soon came to accept his death as the will of God, and encouraged the congregation to persist in their faith. [48]

Simple summary of the reasonable Christian approach to healing:

- Ask God in faith for healing, calling upon the elders for prayer and anointing.
- If it is God's will, he will heal you.
- If he does not, wait patiently in faith and joy, even if it is until the day of your death, because you know the LORD.
- Realize that God perfects his saints through suffering as one of the means, and being conformed to the image of Christ is the goal.
- Don't listen to lying, delusional Word of Faith teachers, most of whom are extremely ignorant and untrained and should be reading
their bible book by book, cover to cover, to see the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD, not just the cherry picked verses of false teachers.
- Realize that in the resurrection, the mortal bodies are reclaimed, and until then all of creation, including these mortal bodies, groan
in anticipation (Romans 8)

I hesitate to tell gullible folks about the antics of false teachers like Hobart Freeman, because they are likely to research him and follow his teachings.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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James 2:5 "Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?"

So stop bragging about riches. Repent and believe.
I have repented and believed. And, I am not rich.

It is a shame upon the USA that groups like TBN are piping their false teachings into India and other poor countries.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Teaching christians to believe in Christ's atonement doesn't mean placing burden on them. You pray for people and make them depend on you like Catholics who depend on the intercession of saints! Don't deceive christians.
Firstly, those who claim Christians are entitled to physical healing in this lifetime are the deceivers.

The logical conclusion of your teaching is that if someone has a debilitating issue such as cerebral palsy or paralysis, if they are never healed of it, it is because they lack faith.

Secondly, you are setting Christians up for unmet expectations. When they are not healed of their conditions, they could be tempted to discard their faith.

Thirdly, you are encouraging some individuals in the path of loving God for his gifts, rather than loving Him. This is what Satan claimed Job's motives were. And, to be honest, I think that's what the motive of many WoF, Health Wealth and Prosperity people is. They are looking to God only for his gifts, and not because they love Him and want his presence in their lives.

I mean, I can see this sort of mentality for a baby Christian who is still sucking on the bottle and wearing diapers, but at some point, a believer should grow out of it and quit listening to ill-instructed, false WoF teachers.

Fourthly, the real believer has an eternal perspective. And WoF, Health/Wealth/Prosperity is not focused on this. They do not understand concepts like union with Christ, and how suffering creates Christ in the believer.

2 Corinthians 4:7-18 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.
13 Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we also believe, and so we also speak, 14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. 15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
(ESV Strong's)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Some christians trust in Christ's atonement to be saved from God's wrath.

But when it comes to healing from sicknesses, they trust in doctors, gifted healers and the prayer of elders. But God is pleased only when an individual christian trusts Him for healing promised through Christ's atonement (Without faith it is impossible to please God) as in Isaiah 53:4 & Mathew 8:17. Thus they commit apostasy in the area of healing and stray away from grace.

And moving outside of the grace of atonement, they are moving from confidence in Christ to confidence in self/doctor/
gifted-healer/elders. Catholics do exactly the same by trusting in the prayers (intercessions) of mary & the saints. On the other hand, the woman in Mathew 9:22 was healed by "her" faith & not through intermediaries like doctors/gifted-healers/elders.

Why live like catholics?

It is you who has to find the truth of faith which pleases. You are terribly displeasing God.[/QUOTE

much of what you say is opinionated and not completely true.

Luke was a Doctor, did you know that? God uses them to heal people did you know that.
Jesus said : "Those who are sick need physician" Mark 2:17

Elders are told to be called on and PRAY for one another in James 5


Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Jesus said to pray for the sick, clothe the naked feed the hungry. God has chosen to use men and women to get this done.
God uses doctors and Pastors and those gifted. is going to doctor trust man and not God ? no, it is not. Ask one to pray for you and with you not trusting God? No, it is not.


No one is living like a catholic but those who are catholic.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Many churches spoil christians by always praying for them. Instead they have to teach them faith so they start to pray for themselves by faith! Why?

Being prayed for isn't faith. Instead faith is trusting God and praying to Him for one's own healing in the absence of external support.

Genuineness of faith is seen in the absence of support especially from the local church. That is why Gods sends persecution and breaks apart the local churches. Local churches, gifted healers & medical doctors etc become long term unnecessary crutches which eventually weaken the limbs of faith.
completely unfounded. The local Church does far more than you seem to know. I bet you don't even go to church because you have not found one up to your standard. I wonder what it is you have done to teach , edify, and comfort? Instead of lambasting, scoffing , and mocking those who you can't disciple ? Very judgmental are you.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Simply because one is healed doesn't mean he is given a sign. In what state a person receives healing decides whether the healing is a sign or not.
Thus if a person receives healing with faith as Jesus declares in Mathew 9:22, the healing is not a sign. And if the person receives healing without faith, the healing is indeed a sign.

You are confusing between knowledge of Christ and faith in Christ. Simply because a person doesn't know more of Christ doesn't mean he cannot have faith and his healing would necessarily constitute a sign.

Simply because a person has faith doesn't mean he need not grow in faith by growing in knowledge of Christ. The woman in Mathew 9:22 had faith to be healed. But many christians are spoiled to trust in doctors/gifted-healers/prayers of elders in order to be healed. This is what Catholics do!

Both salvation of soul and physical healing is from God's sovereignty through faith. A person without faith in any area is sick and not healthy in that area. Claims of sovereignty without faith is meaningless.
Are you kidding me, sir.
When one is healed they know it...and I am NOT talking about physical healing, sir

That healing is a cut to the heart revelation of THE VERY TRUTH of THE GOSPEL...

No sir...that is an immediate felt conversion...you....KNOW

By the way...outwardly, I am a catholic...every outward denomination, sir is just that...an outward profession before the eyes of men of who one says they belong to and worship in community. But I am first and foremost CHRISTIAN...and need NO man to teach me, or to lay additional rules for me...for I know the ONE to whom I belong to...and HE, knows because HE sees inwardly upon the heart that true profession...

I will NEVER tell anyone that they should EVER avoid praying to GOD for healing...but I would NEVER tell them NOT to do what they are responsible to do..which is go to the Doctor and be treated for their illness...all the while NEVER, EVER neglecting prayer....
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Every denomination of Every outward structure of the outward church, has mixed in, within those doors, those who know who and what they worship....and those who don´t....