Not By Works

[mailmandan]

'Once for all' doesn't mean you can lost it.
That's not the argument.
The argument is it doesn't mean you can't lose it, as you are insisting.

Here is where we know 'once for all' (Christ doesn't have to be re-sacrificed) does not mean you can't lose it:

" 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:26-29

You can't just decide to change the saved sanctified person in the chapter to an unsaved sanctified believer because it doesn't line up with your osas beliefs. That's unreasonable, even dishonest.

Just ask yourself, "why can't you just let the passage say what it says. Why do you find it necessary to redefine vs. 29 when nothing in the passage does that?" Obviously, it's because your osas beliefs won't allow you to let the context itself define who it is. Think about it. Osas has to jump in and make sure the reader doesn't think it's the sanctified believer the author has been talking about all along.

It does mean 'for all time'.
The sanctification that you get from Christ's sacrifice IS for all time.
The text says that means you don't have to re-sacrifice Christ to remain sanctified.
It does not say you can't lose it. You are adding that.
Your possession of the never failing Sacrifice is conditioned on your continued belief in the one Sacrifice that never ends.

"36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised." - Hebrews 10:36

You continue to error by failing to recognize that there are “nominal” Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in Hebrews 10 and throughout the book of Hebrews. *See Hebrews 4:2-3 for example. There are two camps of Hebrews in chapter 10. Those who draw back to perdition and those who believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) which remains your achilles heel.

 

[mailmandan]

Exactly!
Vs. 10 and 14 tell us the sanctified person is a saved person.
But by vs. 29 with no explanation, the sanctified person suddenly becomes a sanctified unbeliever in osas doctrine.
The explanation osas offers is 'it has to be an unsaved sanctified person, or else it's saying a saved sanctified person loses his salvation, and we know that can't be, because osas is true'.
It's the famous circular reasoning of the osas argument.

Verses 10 and 14 tell us that the sanctified person is sanctified “once for all/for all time” and not temporarily, so the person in verse 29 who is said to be sanctified or “set apart” is not saved because they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. (vs. 39) *CONTEXT.*

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan,

Do you tell your customers that a forever stamp means it can never be removed from the envelope?
Isn't it rather that 'forever' means it's value for delivering a letter lasts forever as long as it applied to and remains on the envelope?

In the same way, Christ's 'forever' sacrifice has value in delivering a person to the kingdom of God as long as the forever sacrifice remains affixed to the person. Hebrews 10 explains the forever value of Christ, not that the forever value of Christ will be forever applied to a person.

I think I know where you're going next.
I'm ready.

Your faulty human logic doesn’t apply here. When God says forever, He means forever and not temporarily. I hope you’re ready to finally accept the truth.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10:29
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The context here is a saved person. Unless you are suggesting being sanctified by the blood dose not save. Is that what you are suggesting?

I already explained this numerous times. Set apart, but not saved in verse 29, which is backed up by verse 26 and 39. The saved person believes to the saving of the soul and is sanctified once for all/for all time. (vss. 10,14)

 

[G2RBeliever]

I like coming to this thread for ONE reason only,to learn what others know from the Word of God!
It is and should be a learning curve for us to share the TRUTH among fellow believers.

.......however I've seen this as well!

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I already explained this numerous times. Set apart, but not saved in verse 29, which is backed up by verse 26 and 39. The saved person believes to the saving of the soul and is sanctified once for all/for all time. (vss. 10,14)

Your explanation ignores what is contained in Hebrews 10:29 alone.

If you are sanctified by the blood this means you were saved; that’s it, end of discussion. And the person trampling on the blood in Hebrews 10:29 is this same saved person that was sanctified by the blood. No further explanation is needed.

Hebrews 10:39 is not addressing those who draw back unto perdition after getting saved by the blood and it is therefore not relevant.

 

[mailmandan]

Your explanation ignores what is contained in Hebrews 10:29 alone.

If you are sanctified by the blood this means you were saved; that’s it, end of discussion. And the person trampling on the blood in Hebrews 10:29 is this same saved person that was sanctified by the blood. No further explanation is needed.

Hebrews 10:39 is not addressing those who draw back unto perdition after getting saved by the blood and it is therefore not relevant.

False and I already thoroughly explained this in post #19 after interpreting verse 29 in CONTEXT and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/

Verse 39 makes a clear distinction between those who draw back to perdition and those who believe to the saving of the soul. That settles it for me, but feel free to believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Jesus has promised , let us believe in Him...

 

[G2RBeliever]

1 Corinthians 13:12 FOR NOW we see through a glass ,darkly; but then FACE TO FACE; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as ALSO I AM KNOWN.

James 1:23 -25 For if ANY be a HEARER of the word,and NOT a DOER,he is like unto a man ( or woman) beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself,and goeth his way,and STRAIGHTWAY forgetteth WHAT MANNER OF MAN HE WAS. But WHOSO looketh into the PERFECT law of liberty,and CONTINUETH THEREIN,he being NOT a forgetful hearer,but a DOER of the work, THIS MAN SHALL BE ...BLESSED in his deed.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But WE ALL,with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,ARE CHANGED into the SAME IMAGE from glory to glory,even as by the SPIRIT OF THE LORD.

Galatians 5:13 STAND FAST therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us FREE,and be NOT entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage.

 

[VCO]

If they refused to read Mark 16:17-18 literally, likewise they won't read James literally too.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, WHO WAS DOING THOSE MIRACLES THROUGH THE APOSTLES:

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.]

James 2:10 (HCSB)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of ⌊breaking it⌋ all.
{Making it impossible for your good works to Save you.}

Just in case you think you are sinless:

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man
for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for
the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put
to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as
bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
{That would be President Donald Trump, if you are an American.}


Exceed the Posted Speed Limit by one mile per hour, you are SINNING and are guilty of breaking all of the LAW with that one sin.

 

[EleventhHour]

I like coming to this thread for ONE reason only,to learn what others know from the Word of God!
It is and should be a learning curve for us to share the TRUTH among fellow believers.

.......however I've seen this as well!

Firstly, we need to have the TRUTH, upon which all other truth is founded.

The Gospel is one of security in Christ, an everlasting life, a gift through faith alone by grace alone, given to those who trust Him for it,

An irrevocable gift which can never be lost, forsaken or forfeited.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:23

Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Romans 8:30

 

[azamzimtoti]

How many posts must a man read through before . . . ?

 

[G2RBeliever]

Firstly, we need to have the TRUTH, upon which all other truth is founded.

The Gospel is one of security in Christ, an everlasting life, a gift through faith alone by grace alone, given to those who trust Him for it,

An irrevocable gift which can never be lost, forsaken or forfeited.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:23

Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Romans 8:30

Hi!
You do not like me,its ok.
Growing up might do you good!
I love the Word of God,the WHOLE Word of God!
My beliefs or yours neither are the surety that we like to claim. It must be SPIRITUAL with SPIRITUAL!
I'm assuming you are the ONLY daughter of a farmer,no siblings.....spoiled.
That changes nothing about Him and His word.
STUDY !

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet,and do your own business,and to work with your own hands,as we commanded you;

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God,a workman that needeth NOT BE ASHAMED,rightly dividing the word of TRUTH.

Be original not a parrot repeating others words!

 

[Judges1318]

.

Verses 10 and 14 tell us that the sanctified person is sanctified “once for all/for all time” and not temporarily, so the person in verse 29 who is said to be sanctified or “set apart” is not saved because they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. (vs. 39) *CONTEXT.*

You're still making the same mistake.
You're still misinterpreting 'once and for all' as 'not temporarily applied'.
But the passage says nothing about whether or not the 'one time for all time' sacrifice will remain applied to the sanctified person or not, only that the sacrifice itself is not temporary. This is made even more evident when the author warns them what will happen if it doesn't.

 

[Judges1318]

.

Your faulty human logic doesn’t apply here. When God says forever, He means forever and not temporarily. I hope you’re ready to finally accept the truth.

I'm not arguing the forever-ness of Christ's sacrifice.
I'm arguing that the passage does not say 'forever' means 'forever applied'.
We know from the fact that the author exhorts them to hold fast their confession of hope BECAUSE of the faithful 'foreverness' of Christ's sacrifice:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" - Hebrews 10:23

See it? He's saying, "keep believing because Christ's Sacrifice and ministry is forever and sure."
That tells us right there 'forever' does not imply 'you will always have it'.
Understand the argument?
I'm not asking if you agree with it.
I'm simply asking if you actually can comprehend the argument I'm making.
Can you?


And once this is understood, you can see that vs. 39 is in no way a confirmation that these believers are incapable of falling away. That would contradict the exhortation to keep believing in vs. 23.

 

[EleventhHour]

Hi!
You do not like me,its ok.
Growing up might do you good!
I love the Word of God,the WHOLE Word of God!
My beliefs or yours neither are the surety that we like to claim. It must be SPIRITUAL with SPIRITUAL!
I'm assuming you are the ONLY daughter of a farmer,no siblings.....spoiled.
That changes nothing about Him and His word.
STUDY !

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet,and do your own business,and to work with your own hands,as we commanded you;

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God,a workman that needeth NOT BE ASHAMED,rightly dividing the word of TRUTH.

Be original not a parrot repeating others words!

It is never personal for me.

And I have appreciated your candour on this thread.
I have siblings and I am far from spoiled... I am a very hard worker.

I am not a parrot either.. Truth is OSAS.

 

[G2RBeliever]

It is never personal for me.

And I have appreciated your candour on this thread.
I have siblings and I far from spoiled... I am a very hard worker.

I am not a parrot either.. Truth is OSAS.

Peace and Love,in Jesus name!🙏

 

[CherieR]

How many posts must a man read through before . . . ?

Before the tribbles come crashing down?

 

[mailmandan]

.

You're still making the same mistake.
You're still misinterpreting 'once and for all' as 'not temporarily applied'.
But the passage says nothing about whether or not the 'one time for all time' sacrifice will remain applied to the sanctified person or not, only that the sacrifice itself is not temporary. This is made even more evident when the author warns them what will happen if it doesn't.

I completely disagree and I’m tired of arguing with you.

 

[mailmandan]

.

I'm not arguing the forever-ness of Christ's sacrifice.
I'm arguing that the passage does not say 'forever' means 'forever applied'.
We know from the fact that the author exhorts them to hold fast their confession of hope BECAUSE of the faithful 'foreverness' of Christ's sacrifice:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" - Hebrews 10:23

See it? He's saying, "keep believing because Christ's Sacrifice and ministry is forever and sure."

That tells us right there 'forever' does not imply 'you will always have it'.
Understand the argument?
I'm not asking if you agree with it.
I'm simply asking if you actually can comprehend the argument I'm making.
Can you? And once this is understood, you can see that vs. 39 is in no way a confirmation that these believers are incapable of falling away. That would contradict the exhortation to keep believing in vs. 23.

Again I completely disagree...