Does salvation come through Gods pre destined election or the free will of man?
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Well let me ask you this if only the chosen elsect were predestined then why did it say for God so loved the world he gave his one and only son?
Think about it, if he had only chosen a select few then why would he do that with his one and only son for the world? I mean God is love this is common knowledge yet if he was indeed love why would he take such great care in making each and every one of us in the womb down to every detail just so that no matter what we did in life we were destined for hell anyways?
Salvation is a gift freely given the scripture are very clear on that so if a gift is freely given that means that having a chosen elect of predestination wouldn't fit that bill would it?
Think about it, if he had only chosen a select few then why would he do that with his one and only son for the world? I mean God is love this is common knowledge yet if he was indeed love why would he take such great care in making each and every one of us in the womb down to every detail just so that no matter what we did in life we were destined for hell anyways?
Salvation is a gift freely given the scripture are very clear on that so if a gift is freely given that means that having a chosen elect of predestination wouldn't fit that bill would it?
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Election for salvation is a TOTAL FALLACY. Kindly take some time to study what is actually in the Bible, not what some claim. Election and predestination are for the perfection of the saints. For believers to be perfected in Christ and also glorified (Rom 8:29,30).
For whom He did foreknow...
...He also did predestinate...
...to be conformed to the image of his Son...
...that He might be the firstborn among many brethren...
...Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called...
...and whom he called, them he also justified...
...and whom he justified, them he also glorified...
For whom He did foreknow...
...He also did predestinate...
...to be conformed to the image of his Son...
...that He might be the firstborn among many brethren...
...Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called...
...and whom he called, them he also justified...
...and whom he justified, them he also glorified...
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I believe that "the elect" will actually BE saved, because the Scriptures say so.
But they also say that Jesus died for ALL people, and that each person can choose to come or not come to Christ.
I support universal ATONEMENT, but NOT universal SALVATION.
God knows in advance who all will be saved, but it doesn't follow that Christ died only for those people.
But they also say that Jesus died for ALL people, and that each person can choose to come or not come to Christ.
I support universal ATONEMENT, but NOT universal SALVATION.
God knows in advance who all will be saved, but it doesn't follow that Christ died only for those people.
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I've come to realize one can answer the question either or and through reading of the Bible itself.
There are plenty of scripture that when considered as delivering the message about Gods predestination, predetermination, and election of believers, makes what we're told is Salvation by God through His grace alone, a reality. In other words, yes, God predetermined whom He would save and conversely whom He would not.
And then there are those other scriptures that say the opposite. Especially John 3:16. For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but will have eternal life.
Meaning while Salvation was offered to the world by God through His grace, we are able to choose to believe. Or, one can also choose to read that verse and believe it marks with the predetermined Elect of God, if they wish.
God leads people to believe because He made us without free will. Being He is Sovereign. And that too is supported in the Book of Proverbs.
Chapter 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are from the LORD, so how can anyone understand his own way?
Jeremiah 10:23I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.
Psalm 37:23
The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD, and He delights in his way.
I think this walk with Christ being a matter of faith, one can choose which they wish to believe. Because there are two options available in Gods word. God predetermined the Saved, and we have nothing to do with it. Or, we find our way to Christ because God in His grace paved the way, and we then can make the choice. And because we find the message of Salvation compelling for our personal lives and through introspection of our faults, sins, to come to realize we need a Savior.
Both are Biblical.
Welcome to the community.
There are plenty of scripture that when considered as delivering the message about Gods predestination, predetermination, and election of believers, makes what we're told is Salvation by God through His grace alone, a reality. In other words, yes, God predetermined whom He would save and conversely whom He would not.
And then there are those other scriptures that say the opposite. Especially John 3:16. For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but will have eternal life.
Meaning while Salvation was offered to the world by God through His grace, we are able to choose to believe. Or, one can also choose to read that verse and believe it marks with the predetermined Elect of God, if they wish.
God leads people to believe because He made us without free will. Being He is Sovereign. And that too is supported in the Book of Proverbs.
Chapter 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are from the LORD, so how can anyone understand his own way?
Jeremiah 10:23I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.
Psalm 37:23
The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD, and He delights in his way.
I think this walk with Christ being a matter of faith, one can choose which they wish to believe. Because there are two options available in Gods word. God predetermined the Saved, and we have nothing to do with it. Or, we find our way to Christ because God in His grace paved the way, and we then can make the choice. And because we find the message of Salvation compelling for our personal lives and through introspection of our faults, sins, to come to realize we need a Savior.
Both are Biblical.
Welcome to the community.
Romans 8:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Out of God's foreknowledge God's elect are those who He knew would respond amidst free will. We then become children of God. He predestined a plan for salvation through Christ. All are given the opportunity but all will not respond. Remember God is outside of time and all knowing. He can see the names in the book of life as if it was this very second.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Out of God's foreknowledge God's elect are those who He knew would respond amidst free will. We then become children of God. He predestined a plan for salvation through Christ. All are given the opportunity but all will not respond. Remember God is outside of time and all knowing. He can see the names in the book of life as if it was this very second.
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Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
The Lamb was slain, the prophets blood shed, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world, although they were future events.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn of every creature, although He was not born until 4000 years later.
The Word of God is the plan of God to come in the future, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, eternal life, and to judge the angels and people.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
This means that God already had the plan of salvation to give to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning, for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.
But this salvation is to whoever chooses that salvation for God is love, and His kingdom is love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.
It goes against the nature of God to choose salvation or not without giving people a choice.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God wants all people to be saved so we have a choice to choose salvation or not.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Everybody is equal in the eyes of the Lord and He does not favor one above the other, and all are sinners, so why would God choose who would be saved, and not saved, without their choice if all people are the same in His eyes.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
Many are called, but few are chosen, which God does the calling and choosing on earth according to their heart condition.
If God chooses in the beginning without their choice then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, so why would He call people that cannot be chosen.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
God chose us, we did not choose Him, which when God calls a person He will work with them to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to decide to go through the door of truth for His kingdom is true love, but we would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in our life when He called us for the flesh would not accept the truth on it's own.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
And to walk through the door of truth is to repent, and turn away from sin, and be led of the Spirit and be Christlike to be chosen.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Some people did not walk through the door of truth and held unto sin and believed they still had salvation, and were not chosen.
God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
The Lamb was slain, the prophets blood shed, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world, although they were future events.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn of every creature, although He was not born until 4000 years later.
The Word of God is the plan of God to come in the future, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, eternal life, and to judge the angels and people.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
This means that God already had the plan of salvation to give to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning, for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.
But this salvation is to whoever chooses that salvation for God is love, and His kingdom is love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.
It goes against the nature of God to choose salvation or not without giving people a choice.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God wants all people to be saved so we have a choice to choose salvation or not.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Everybody is equal in the eyes of the Lord and He does not favor one above the other, and all are sinners, so why would God choose who would be saved, and not saved, without their choice if all people are the same in His eyes.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
Many are called, but few are chosen, which God does the calling and choosing on earth according to their heart condition.
If God chooses in the beginning without their choice then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, so why would He call people that cannot be chosen.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
God chose us, we did not choose Him, which when God calls a person He will work with them to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to decide to go through the door of truth for His kingdom is true love, but we would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in our life when He called us for the flesh would not accept the truth on it's own.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
And to walk through the door of truth is to repent, and turn away from sin, and be led of the Spirit and be Christlike to be chosen.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Some people did not walk through the door of truth and held unto sin and believed they still had salvation, and were not chosen.
Hello Jay3009, we believe that someone is part of God's elect when they come to saving faith in Christ. There is no other way to know (that I am aware of anyway). IOW, "whosoever believes" is elect. This, BTW, is just as true for Calvinists as it is for Arminians.
God bless you!
~Deut
God bless you!
~Deut
John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
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1 Cor 2:14 describes the condition of those who are not of the elect. however, We are not supposed to try to determine who the elect are. because the elect, by their fleshly nature can appear to be very bad people. 1 Chronicles 21, David got in trouble with God for having Joab to number Israel and caused him to lose thousands of lives of Israel.
God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel. Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of the elect of God, Rom 9:9-13.
God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel. Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of the elect of God, Rom 9:9-13.
