Catholicism vs Protestantism

[GandalfTheWhite]

So you are saying because the Jewish God has no son that their God is different as well?

They also believe that the Messiah will come in the flesh (therefore being the Son of God).

They understood Jesus but did not like that He took on their believes of keeping Talmud. That is why they tested Him to see if He was the Messiah. So you are wrong my friend.

 

[1christian1]

Right, the Jewish scriptures refer to the same God.

But the Jews themselves, based on what they say?

*If* we say that a person who says that Jesus didn't die for our sins is worshipping a different God than Christians do, then the Jews worshipping a different God than Christians do.

So you are saying because the Jewish God has no son that their God is different as well?

Tell me, I'd like to know..

 

[1christian1]

They also believe that the Messiah will come in the flesh (therefore being the Son of God).

They understood Jesus but did not like that He took on their believes of keeping Talmud. That is why they tested Him to see if He was the Messiah. So you are wrong my friend.

Yeah, They tested Him and found Him guilty. What did they do next...

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Good point!

Some common objections I've heard to that line of reasoning are:

The Jewish scriptures say that it's the same God, so that counts as Jews worshiping the same God.

The Jews are currently blinded, so it doesn't matter what they say, it's still the same God.

To me, neither of those objections hold much water.
But in my experience, if a person is highly motivated to say that Christians and Jews worship the same God, but Muslims worship a different God, they will often bring up one of those objections.

The reason we worship the same God as the Jews is because we are both worshipping YHVH Elohim. In South Africa we have many people using two names. Does that make them two different people ?

The Muslims worship the sun god Baal/Allah whatever you want to call him. He is a elohim but not THE Elohim. If you look at all the Muslim signs what do you see? Baal Hadad. They are Baal worshippers.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yeah, They tested Him and found Him guilty. What did they do next...

I agree my brother, but how many Christians are rejecting Jesus and crucify Him daily by the way we are living our lives?

The Jews know Yeshua and many of them are turning to Him as the Bible tells us they will do in end times.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

No, I do not admit that.

What I said was that Muslims "think that the God who created heaven and earth also wrote the Quran. But they are wrong."

Jackson, my brother, when you read the sentence

1) Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Does that mean the same thing in your mind as

2) The God that Christians talk about is the same god that Muslims talk about.

Because those two sentences do not mean the same thing!

1) No

and

2) No

 

[Jackson123]

If you are saying the Jews and Christians don't worship the same God, then you are being consistent.

But I am concerned, my brother Jackson, that you may end up putting yourself in a difficult position.

If you go on to say that people who say that Jews and Christians are worshiping the same God cannot be Christians, then you will end up excluding not only Catholics, but also most Protestants, imo.

My brother, what I say is: Jews that reject Jesus not worship true god. "

Jews is an ethnic, some Jews accept Jesus some not

 

[Jackson123]

People are free to chose what they believe, but one can't believe Jesus is God an Jesus not god in the same time.

So does god. The same god can't teach Jesus is God and isn't god in the same time

 

[chanchuinchoy]

Sure! Though it is possible, when two people see things differently, that one person is right and the other person is wrong.


I understand that it is illegal to attempt to convert Muslims in many Muslim countries.

I think sometimes God wants us to preach even when it is illegal, sometimes not.
Acts 4: 18 And they sent for them, and gave them orders not to make statements or give teaching in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John in answer said to them, It is for you to say if it is right in the eyes of God to give attention to you more than to God: 20 For it is not possible for us to keep from saying what we have seen and have knowledge of.

When I was involved in missionary works for m church man years ago, I recalled my church priest said this before sent us out to various communities to preach on the gospel of Jesus Christ, if you see a muslim easily recognize by heir skin color and cloths) leave them alone and if yo have wrongly gave the flyer on the gospel of Jesus Christ.to a muslim, politely take back the flyer from them immediately. At the bottom of the flyer must be printed For non-muslims only. If you didnt, it will be considered unlawful publication, and you can be either find or even jailed as well.

Few years back, i think (3-5 years back), there is one pastor named Roland Koh. His church is big named Dream Center at the heart of Petaling Jaya, a city about 50km away from Kuala Lumpur, capital of Malaysia. . He is one of the many pastors in that church. His church rented out part of the church premise to a child care. So unknowingly, some muslims parent sent their children there also. During Christmas that year, the child care invited all parents to a party at the church premise. So some muslms parents came and in the midst of the party, islamic authority together with few police officers raided the party. This was published in the newspaper the following day and created a wave of protest from the Christian community. Few days later pastor Roland Koh couldnt be found anymore, just vanished in thin air till today. A police report was lodged and found from CCTV recording that pastor Roland Koh was abducted at gun point by a group of military attire men. It was rumoured (not sure) that the reason for pastor Roland Koh was he tried to convert those muslim parents. Nobody knows where pastor Roland Koh was included his family, wife and children and our police could not trace who were those abductors.

 

[Dan_473]

Hylomorphism (or hylemorphism) is a philosophical theory developed by Aristotle, which conceives being (ousia) as a compound of matter and form. The word is a 19th-century term formed from the Greek words ὕλη hyle, "wood, matter", and μορφή, morphē, "form".

Seem to me matter is physical object

: the substance of which a physical object is composed
b: material substance that occupies space, has mass, and is composed predominantly of atoms consisting of protons, neutrons, and electrons, that constitutes the observable universe, and that is interconvertible with energy
c: a material substance of a particular kind or for a particular purpose vegetable matter

I believe a little lower in the article it says
"In some cases, a substance's matter will itself be a substance. If substance A is made out of substance B, then substance B is the matter of substance A. However, what is the matter of a substance that is not made out of any other substance? According to Aristotelians, such a substance has only "prime matter" as its matter."

 

[Dan_473]

People may call tractor airplane in this case not real airplane

That's true, but that is not how you had set up your example of two people talking about airplanes.

 

[Dan_473]

Tell me, I'd like to know..

I think Jews and Christians worship the same God.
But Jews don't have good knowledge about God.

Romans 10: 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

 

[Jackson123]

That's true, but that is not how you had set up your example of two people talking about airplanes.

If so than I will make new statement

John call tractor an airplane.
Muslim call lucifer od

 

[Jackson123]

I think Jews and Christians worship the same God.
But Jews don't have good knowledge about God.

Romans 10: 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

It may mean According to they knowledge, mammon and power are god

 

[Dan_473]

The reason we worship the same God as the Jews is because we are both worshipping YHVH Elohim. In South Africa we have many people using two names. Does that make them two different people ?

No, same person. And I agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God.

The Muslims worship the sun god Baal/Allah whatever you want to call him. He is a elohim but not THE Elohim. If you look at all the Muslim signs what do you see? Baal Hadad. They are Baal worshippers.

Well, I don't know about that. Many churches where I live have an American flag in the sanctuary with a Roman eagle on top. Are they worshipping the Roman eagle and everything it stands for?
I think a good case can be made for either Jews or Muslims in either direction. I don't have a strong opinion about it myself.

Because of all that, I don't think that it's good to say that a person who says one thing or the other about either group cannot be a Christian.

 

[Dan_473]

My brother, what I say is: Jews that reject Jesus not worship true god.

And you're welcome to say that.
Now, a lot of Protestants will disagree with you.

So regarding those who disagree with you and say that Jews who don't accept Jesus are worshiping the same God as Christians,
do you say that they cannot be Christians?

 

[Dan_473]

People are free to chose what they believe, but one can't believe Jesus is God an Jesus not god in the same time.

So does god. The same god can't teach Jesus is God and isn't god in the same time

Right, which would be why the Christian God didn't write the Jewish traditions of the fathers or the Koran.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe a little lower in the article it says
"In some cases, a substance's matter will itself be a substance. If substance A is made out of substance B, then substance B is the matter of substance A. However, what is the matter of a substance that is not made out of any other substance? According to Aristotelians, such a substance has only "prime matter" as its matter."

To my knowledge substance is also physical matter

Quote from dictionary
the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

End quote

 

[Jackson123]

Right, which would be why the Christian God didn't write the Jewish traditions of the fathers or the Koran.

Yep.
Jews that believe Jesus worship true god, Jews that reject Jesus rebelt God

Rebelt is not worship

So Jews that reject Jesus not worship true god.
There for Jews that reject Jesus not worship Christian god

 

[Dan_473]

If so than I will make new statement

John call tractor an airplane.

Great example! John calling the tractor and airplane doesn't change the nature of the tractor.
And if John says some things about the tractor that are true and some things that are false, it is still the same tractor.

Muslim call lucifer od

I think a good case can be made for saying that Muslims call God "God", but also listen to lies from Satan. Just as John saying false things about the tractor didn't change the tractor, Muslims repeating false things they heard from Satan about God doesn't change who God is.

it sounds to me similar to what the ancient Samaritans were doing
2 Kings 17: 32 So they went on worshipping the Lord, and made for themselves, from among all the people, priests for the high places, to make offerings for them in the houses of the high places. 33 They gave worship to the Lord, but they gave honour to their gods like the nations did from whom they had been taken as prisoners.

I think it continued into Jesus' day
John 4: 22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.