Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Jackson123]

I mean this gently and politely:

Jackson my brother, you are really something.
You clearly have trouble in English with things like plurals, definite articles, verbs, and punctuation.
Yet you want to dispute the meaning of a sentence that involves all of those issues!

I mean this gently and politely:

Jackson my brother, you are really something.
You clearly have trouble in English with things like plurals, definite articles, verbs, and punctuation.
Yet you want to dispute the meaning of a sentence that involves all of those issues!

Is that why you think I misunderstood ccc841.
Prove me wrong on that brother

 

[crossnote]

So you are saying because the Jewish God has no son that their God is different as well?

Nice try.
The Jewish God is the same God regardless if some Jews deny Him. (Many Jews embraced Him, such as the Prophets and Apostles who were all Jewish.)

 

[crossnote]

Good point!

Some common objections I've heard to that line of reasoning are:

The Jewish scriptures say that it's the same God, so that counts as Jews worshiping the same God.

The Jews are currently blinded, so it doesn't matter what they say, it's still the same God.

To me, neither of those objections hold much water.
But in my experience, if a person is highly motivated to say that Christians and Jews worship the same God, but Muslims worship a different God, they will often bring up one of those objections.

It wasn't a good point.
The Jewish Prophets have prophesied of the coming of their Messiah from the beginning. Their prophecies came from the same Holy Spirit who brooded over the face of creation and who overshadowed Mary fulfilling Isa 7:14.

 

[1christian1]

Nice try.
The Jewish God is the same God regardless if some Jews deny Him. (Many Jews embraced Him, such as the Prophets and Apostles who were all Jewish.)

I did'nt say that that there are not Jewish Christians. I was speaking of the Jewish religion.A friend of mine told me that growing up in Israel, He never heard of Jesus. There was no "New Testament " in the libraries...
What's that about?

 

[crossnote]

I did'nt say that that there are not Jewish Christians. I was speaking of the Jewish religion.A friend of mine told me that growing up in Israel, He never heard of Jesus. There was no "New Testament " in the libraries...
What's that about?

That's about Rabbinical Judaism and Tradition trumping God's revelation of Himself in His Word.
Ask them how many times Isaiah 53 was read (not interpreted) in their Synagogues.

 

[Jackson123]

I don't know that there is a relationship. I used it as an example. It's possible there is a relationship because it sounded like hylomorphism talks about a particular thing that particular thing.

I don't understand what you mean hylomorphism talk about physical objects result of combination of matter and form

 

[1christian1]

That's about Rabbinical Judaism and Tradition trumping God's revelation of Himself in His Word.
Ask them how many times Isaiah 53 was read (not interpreted) in their Synagogues.

Okay, I did'nt understand any of that but I want to know why the Jew's keep Jesus from their people...

 

[Jackson123]

I did'nt say that that there are not Jewish Christians. I was speaking of the Jewish religion.A friend of mine told me that growing up in Israel, He never heard of Jesus. There was no "New Testament " in the libraries...
What's that about?

Jews base on Old Testament, and the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus, but they wrong on interpretation.
Correct information but wrong interpretation

Muslim believe in Quran, they may have correct interpretation on Quran, but wrong information.

I believe Jews that say Jesus not god, not worship true god. Because true god talking about jesus and they refused. It mean they refuse to believe true god.

 

[Dan_473]

The people alive during the Old Testament had to believe in the coming messiah and follow rules such as circumcision, etc.

The New Testament mandate stipulated everyone had to believe the gospel: That Jesus was the promised Messiah who paid the price for the sin of all humanity through His death, was buried and resurrected. And after believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ they were instructed to repent, be water baptized in Jesus' name and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2) The New Testament began when the Holy Ghost was poured out at Pentecost and applies to all those who have lived and died since then and until Jesus' second coming.

The following scriptures indicate that obedience to the gospel is not possible after death:


And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:27-29


Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Eccl 9:10

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Rev 14:13

I can see what you're saying. Now, when you wrote

Because God is a just God, everyone will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ before the end comes...

Are you saying that everyone is given the opportunity to hear the gospel before they die?

 

[Dan_473]

@Jackson123
Re post #1,241
"Is that why you think I misunderstood ccc841.
Prove me wrong on that brother"

What I was suggesting was that you may wish to reword this post

Not only Muslim not Christian, people that say Muslim worship Christian god are

As for CCC 841, it's not a matter of proving one side right or wrong. I think a good case can be made in either direction.

And because of that, I don't think it is right to say that someone is not a Christian because of their opinion on the matter.

Romans 10: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It looks to me like being a Christian, being saved, is a very simple matter.
Then one spends the rest of one's life growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus!

 

[Dan_473]

It wasn't a good point.
The Jewish Prophets have prophesied of the coming of their Messiah from the beginning. Their prophecies came from the same Holy Spirit who brooded over the face of creation and who overshadowed Mary fulfilling Isa 7:14.

Right, the Jewish scriptures refer to the same God.

But the Jews themselves, based on what they say?

*If* we say that a person who says that Jesus didn't die for our sins is worshipping a different God than Christians do, then the Jews worshipping a different God than Christians do.

 

[crossnote]

Okay, I did'nt understand any of that but I want to know why the Jew's keep Jesus from their people...

The Apostles (who were Jews) didn't...
2 Corinthians 4:2-4 (KJV) But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You can ask an anti-Messianic Rabbi.

 

[Dan_473]

I don't understand what you mean hylomorphism talk about physical objects result of combination of matter and form

I don't think it has to refer only to physical objects, but I could be wrong.
"Aristotle defines X's matter as "that out of which" X is made.[1] For example, letters are the matter of syllables."

 

[crossnote]

Right, the Jewish scriptures refer to the same God.

But the Jews themselves, based on what they say?

*If* we say that a person who says that Jesus didn't die for our sins is worshipping a different God than Christians do, then the Jews worshipping a different God than Christians do.

Jews who reject Jesus are worshipping a different God than the One revealed in the OT.
Jews who believe and embrace Yeshua have the same God as Gentile Christians.

 

[Jackson123]

And because of that, I don't think it is right to say that someone is not a Christian because of their opinion on the matter.

I disagree. If one teach, god that say Jesus is not god as a Christian god, he or she on Christian.

It is impossible one say Jesus is God than believe that Muslim worship true god

You know Muslim god teach Jesus not god don't you?

 

[Dan_473]

I believe Jews that say Jesus not god, not worship true god. Because true god talking about jesus and they refused. It mean they refuse to believe true god.

If you are saying the Jews and Christians don't worship the same God, then you are being consistent.

But I am concerned, my brother Jackson, that you may end up putting yourself in a difficult position.

If you go on to say that people who say that Jews and Christians are worshiping the same God cannot be Christians, then you will end up excluding not only Catholics, but also most Protestants, imo.

 

[Dan_473]

Jews who reject Jesus are worshipping a different God than the One revealed in the OT.
Jews who believe and embrace Yeshua have the same God as Gentile Christians.

That's fine if you want to interpret the situation that way. A lot of people interpret it differently. To me, it's not a big deal either way.
I don't see it as something worth breaking fellowship over!

 

[Dan_473]

I disagree. If one teach, god that say Jesus is not god as a Christian god, he or she on Christian.

It is impossible one say Jesus is God than believe that Muslim worship true god

You know Muslim god teach Jesus not god don't you?

Again, I see it differently.
I think a good case can be made either that it is the same God or a different God.
It's the philosophical question of when are two people talking about the same thing or two different things.
Think of your example with the airplanes. Is the person who is wrong about some things related to airplanes still talking about real airplanes?

 

[Jackson123]

I don't think it has to refer only to physical objects, but I could be wrong.
"Aristotle defines X's matter as "that out of which" X is made.[1] For example, letters are the matter of syllables."

Hylomorphism (or hylemorphism) is a philosophical theory developed by Aristotle, which conceives being (ousia) as a compound of matter and form. The word is a 19th-century term formed from the Greek words ὕλη hyle, "wood, matter", and μορφή, morphē, "form".

Seem to me matter is physical object

: the substance of which a physical object is composed
b: material substance that occupies space, has mass, and is composed predominantly of atoms consisting of protons, neutrons, and electrons, that constitutes the observable universe, and that is interconvertible with energy
c: a material substance of a particular kind or for a particular purpose vegetable matter

 

[Jackson123]

Again, I see it differently.
I think a good case can be made either that it is the same God or a different God.
It's the philosophical question of when are two people talking about the same thing or two different things.
Think of your example with the airplanes. Is the person who is wrong about some things related to airplanes still talking about real airplanes?

People may call tractor airplane in this case not real airplane

People may say God teach Jesus not god, and this god is not real god.