Struggling with this principle

[eternally-gratefull]

First of all Moses wrote an angel appeared to him in the flame of the burning bush. If I speak to you over the phone and you hear my voice, did I come to you in the form of a plastic device. Regardless, i think something is lost in translation because in Ex 33:11 Moses talks to Yahweh face to face. Then a couple verses later in verse 20 when asked to see His glory He says ok but not His face. Now the question, is Yahweh in the form of a man whose glory radiates as awesome, or is just always radiant until He reduces Himself to look like a man?

An Angel?

or the angel of the Lord? IE God himself

Ex 3:
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”


5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

I think you need to rethink

 

[tourist]

Use scripture to prove your point.

Perhaps a gardening manual would be more appropriate. Actually, I have no idea what the point was other than agreeing with you. If you wish, you may use scripture to prove your point.

 

[Benadam]

Freedom is the ability to do what ought to be done. We have it in various degrees.

 

[Blade]

Not that simple. We do have free will.. think.. in the book of beginnings God said "Adam where are you?" God didn't know? "who told you?" Again God didn't know? "did you eat of the tree I told you not to?" Again.. all knowing GOD.. what testing them? No.. were not some puppet. There are so many more.. jump to Lot. So God.. that knows all.. had to come down to see if the charges against that city and the cries He heard are true..and if true He will know it?> A hello? God didn't already know?

Not that He can't... many of us.. that know Him.. if we could know every thought the other was thinking.. we still would not. Knowing the heart is what the Father does.

Its just not that simple. Take it with a grain of salt but.. I heard this Jewish man talking about Christ.. God found him. The short is.. God shows up.. asks that man.. did you not read my book? The man said..what book? He said the lord kinda laughed.. said.. you've never read my book?

There is so much more to this GOD then we can think. Have you (anyone) ever talked with Him? Read the word.. for someone that is ALL Knowing ..knows the end from the start.. treats them as if He didn't know. Hard for some to get around that fact He will NEVER go against your will. Take Satan.. people have a problem thinking God allowed sin.. as if GOD knew about it. Yet.. for a God that made created Satan.. God said "sin was FOUND in you". Not known before. For we know God knows all... we say knows all that will ever follow Him.. yet.. WHY then... go out into all the world.. to reach someone He already knows..will never follow Him? Does not work that way.

Your not a slave.. your His friend. Your not a puppet.. your free. You can think say do anything you wish. Try asking praying to Him and asking about this. Why if you know all.. do you treat us as if you don't?

 

[Dave-L]

Perhaps a gardening manual would be more appropriate. Actually, I have no idea what the point was other than agreeing with you. If you wish, you may use scripture to prove your point.

You have nothing that applies to scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have nothing that applies to scripture.

and you do?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, the Holy Spirit is the earnest of the adoption. The adoption is future. The adoption is the destination of the believer. It’s the redemption of the body.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

You are right in that the final act of our adoption

Can I choose to untie my shoe?
Can I choose which way I turn when I come to a crossroad?
Can I choose to refrain from becoming drunk?
Can I choose to accept Jesus as my Saviour?
Can I choose to reject Jesus?

Absolutely yes to all of those. That is quite easy - first grade stuff! I call that having a free will. Maybe someone else defines free will as something else, but that I how I see it . . .

Does God know everything? Absolutely!
Does He know what I will do before I do it? Absolutely
But that has nothing to do with my freedom of choice! God is completely sovereign and I am a creature with free choice.

You are exactly right in believing that God has given mankind the freedom of choosing how he wants to live his life while he sojourns here on earth. You are also right in saying that God is completely sovereign, without any help from man, in those that he saves eternally. Although man has a free choice, his choices are limited to choosing the natural things of this world,, and is unable to choose anything that pertains to spiritual things, because, according to 1 Cor 2:14, he thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness, until God's sovereign grace transforms him (being but a natural man) from being dead in sins to being spiritually alive with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. The natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, would never accept Jesus as his Saviour, or God as his Father.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Spirit or God draws all. How? Romans 1:20 and Roman's 2 speaks on through nature and moral law God draws people unto Himself so that all are without excuse. God wishes that all would be saved. The only thing that would stop God's desire is free will to deny Him.

1 Corinthians 2:14 doesn't say cannot. In less your using some translation that interprets it differently.

A man who rejects God does not "embrace" or "comprehend" the spiritual. That is, he rejects them as folly; he does not perceive their beauty, or their wisdom; he despises them. He loves other things better. He loves himself more than God.

I use the KJV, and 1 Cor 2:14 says; But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 1:20, Paul is directing his attention to "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints, Rom 1:7". The natural man, who does not believe in a spiritual God,, perceives the things that are seen of the world as evolution, not creation.

The very idea that man can stop God from achieving his will is sacrilegious. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I use the KJV, and 1 Cor 2:14 says; But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 1:20, Paul is directing his attention to "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints, Rom 1:7". The natural man, who does not believe in a spiritual God,, perceives the things that are seen of the world as evolution, not creation.

The very idea that man can stop God from achieving his will is sacrilegious. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

And? Duh if you reject the Spirit and only rely on the natural then how could you understand the spiritual?

You said,"

The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot choose things that are of a spiritual nature

Which is not the same as this.

the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM,

Choose and know are not the same. If you reject the Spirit then obviously you cannot understand or know the spiritual.

Quite simple. But if you view scripture through a Calvinist lens then you are immediately trying to fit scripture in that box.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe I am a fellow Christian. If yes then in absence of free will why do we contradict each other's theology?

 

[miknik5]

Yes, it is the work of God in us according to Philippians 2. It is God who does personally work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure. We should believe without murmuring or disputing.

It was the murmuring of pride in the garden that caused a dispute between flesh and blood creatures, beasts of the field. Creation fell as the corrupting process, the wrath of God revealed from heaven began to reveal his wrath.

Same wrath it reveals today .The glory of God departed .

The work of GOD is that one believe in THE ONE whom HE sent...THAT is the simple response...

It was GRACE from the beginning, Garee...not a murmurring of pride...GOD said, when HE spoke with Adam and gave him ONE COMMAND, do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil....But pay careful attention to what GOD says afterwards..

This is what GOD said:

IN THE DAY that you eat of it...


Do you see it?

GRACE...
GOD didn´t say, maybe youĺl eat of it, possibly, perchance...
HE SAID...IN THE DAY...showing that GOD knew there would be THAT DAY...

GRACE...GOD, knowing that man would fall, still, from HIS GRACE, created mankind...

Because, HE not only knew Adam/Manś fall...HE more importantly foreknew that HE would send THE WAY back for all men who would believe and be reconciled to GOD through, in and by HIS SON,...

 

[garee]

The work of GOD is that one believe in THE ONE whom HE sent...THAT is the simple response...

It was GRACE from the beginning, Garee...not a murmurring of pride...GOD said, when HE spoke with Adam and gave him ONE COMMAND, do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil....But pay careful attention to what GOD says afterwards..

This is what GOD said:

IN THE DAY that you eat of it...


Do you see it?

GRACE...
GOD didn´t say, maybe youĺl eat of it, possibly, perchance...
HE SAID...IN THE DAY...showing that GOD knew there would be THAT DAY...

GRACE...GOD, knowing that man would fall, still, from HIS GRACE, created mankind...

Because, HE not only knew Adam/Manś fall...HE more importantly foreknew that HE would send THE WAY back for all men who would believe and be reconciled to GOD through, in and by HIS SON,...

Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. I am not apposing grace but defending it as it is written . Its the power of God we do have in these earthen bodies .

The work of GOD is that one believe in THE ONE whom "sends out" His word of prophecy moving apostles like the high apostles Jesus Jesus did not move of his own volition .HE sent Jesus ...THAT is the simple response...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

We hear the fathers word that he gives to the son .Not coming from the Son but the treasure of the fathers power that worked in His body of death just as any apostle used to preach the gospel. The power of God not seen unto salvation.

One is our Good teaching Master in heaven. The father not seen not the Son. The Son the first born of the brethren seen he learned from the father Eternal God just as in all the brethren .Yet he was without sin .

No man can serve two teaching masters .The things seen the flesh and things not seen the eternal spirit .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And? Duh if you reject the Spirit and only rely on the natural then how could you understand the spiritual?

You said,"



Which is not the same as this.



Choose and know are not the same. If you reject the Spirit then obviously you cannot understand or know the spiritual.

Quite simple. But if you view scripture through a Calvinist lens then you are immediately trying to fit scripture in that box.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe I am a fellow Christian. If yes then in absence of free will why do we contradict each other's theology?

The natural man, until he has been born of the Spirit, will reject the Spirit, because he does not know the things of the Spirit, and, in fact, neither can he know them. Eph 2 explains how the natural man is born spiritually while he is yet spiritually dead in sins. unable to choose the things of the Spirit, because he cannot know the things of the Spirit. All scriptures must harmonize.

If you are on this forum, endeavoring to learn more about the truths of the scriptures, then, yes, I believe you are one of God's elect children. Some atheist have been known to frequent Bible discussion forums.

 

[tourist]

You have nothing that applies to scripture.

Sorry Dave, but as I pointed out I was agreeing with your position. Don't understand at all the hostile attitude towards someone who was agreeing with you. OK, I'm sorry that I agreed with you. My bad. It won't happen again I can assure you.

 

[Finepearl]

I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.

That God has given men free will is supported throughout scripture. Also that God is omniscient and omnipotent is without question. Consider first Gods almightiness-it is undeniably perfect and infinite. Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence. He chooses to use his power to the degree necessary to accomplish his will and purpose.

Similarly in certain cases God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge (omniscience) in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him. In doing so he accommodates the human freedom of choice as granted by him.

God uses selective foreknowledge. The question is more about what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow or foreordain.

 

[Absolutely]

That God has given men free will is supported throughout scripture. Also that God is omniscient and omnipotent is without question. Consider first Gods almightiness-it is undeniably perfect and infinite. Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence. He chooses to use his power to the degree necessary to accomplish his will and purpose.

Similarly in certain cases God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge (omniscience) in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him. In doing so he accommodates the human freedom of choice as granted by him.

God uses selective foreknowledge. The question is more about what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow or foreordain.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes he choses to operate in more of a "now" mode than to look down the road at victory or ruin.
He operates in a balance of the two.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The natural man, until he has been born of the Spirit, will reject the Spirit, because he does not know the things of the Spirit, and, in fact, neither can he know them. Eph 2 explains how the natural man is born spiritually while he is yet spiritually dead in sins. unable to choose the things of the Spirit, because he cannot know the things of the Spirit. All scriptures must harmonize.

If you are on this forum, endeavoring to learn more about the truths of the scriptures, then, yes, I believe you are one of God's elect children. Some atheist have been known to frequent Bible discussion forums.

I have already explained Ephesians 2.

 

[Dave-L]

Sorry Dave, but as I pointed out I was agreeing with your position. Don't understand at all the hostile attitude towards someone who was agreeing with you. OK, I'm sorry that I agreed with you. My bad. It won't happen again I can assure you.

Thanks for the note.

 

[DBurrage]

That God has given men free will is supported throughout scripture. Also that God is omniscient and omnipotent is without question. Consider first Gods almightiness-it is undeniably perfect and infinite. Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence. He chooses to use his power to the degree necessary to accomplish his will and purpose.

Similarly in certain cases God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge (omniscience) in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him. In doing so he accommodates the human freedom of choice as granted by him.

God uses selective foreknowledge. The question is more about what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow or foreordain.

You're merely stating that God is omnipotent AND than man has free will.

You haven't addressed the logical issue I have with both of these being true, as I explained in my original post.

 

[Finepearl]

I understood your original post as meaning that the struggle you have is equating God being omniscient and at the same time mankind having free will. The predestinarian view I believe is that Gods exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals. This leads to the view that God foreknew and foreordained the future of all his creatures even before the start of creation.

This concept would necessarily mean that all wickedness that history has recorded once existed before creation, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all its minutest details. This concept would conflict with what scripture tells us of Gods qualities of love, justice, mercy etc and also the granting of free will to all his creation. Study of scripture and Gods dealings with humankind reveals that he exercises his ability to foreknow and foreordain events dependent on his expressed will and purpose.

One of Gods qualities is self control. I mentioned in my previous reply how God controls the exercise of his power to the proper degree as and when required. By way of example, His being omnipotent does not mean he has to exercise that almighty power to the absolute degree. In comparison it is similar in his exercising his ability for foreknowledge and foreordination. He is selective as to when and how he uses his omniscience. Having the ability to be all knowing does not mean that ability has to be exercised to the absolute degree. God always uses his omniscience to the proper degree that he as God determines, but always in accord with his will, purpose, righteous standards and in acknowledgement of his creations right to freedom of choice (free will).

 

[presidente]

I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.

A lot of thinking on this, historically, has been colored by philosophy and historical theology.

Consider this verse from Jeremiah, verse 19 verse 5.

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: