Catholicism vs Protestantism
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How did they "KNOW" that? Is that some crazy unique idea that only a "believer on the right path" would say? Come on man everyone says something true, for example what we are discussing here, about Muslims and Islam. They say "there is only 1 god", and that is right, but when in truth the "1 god" they're worshiping is satan, then that "truth" is obsolete and only deception.
As far as this "drawing and God getting ALL glory for our salvation" subject, I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly, but is seems to me that you want some glory for yourself because "YOU choose", were I see it ALL His grace and power lest
I boast saying my choice was part of this. God gets ALL the glory, we get NONE. Do you think you could have chosen Him outside of His power? Because Paul and scripture disagree with you brother.
Romans 3 10-18
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now in Ephesians 2 4-10 we are told that being saved by grace through faith and.....wait for it......."this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast". Where do you read that it's our choice that saves us? Please don't get me wrong I believe we do have choice, we do have a will of our own, but what I am not saying is this life we live was designed and done before we are born? We have choice but our "will" is enslaved always. We are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, period. Disagree? Anyway lets read.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Honestly it sounds to me like you want to boast a little bit. Why does the idea that God gets the credit for your decision offend you so much? Why do you need to boast about your almighty choice? (making a point with a question not trying to be insulting, or insinuate you are literally thinking this or anything) I can't lie this whole "free will" debate had me so messed up when I believed like you. I thought like this, "I have free will right? So did I lose my free will when I got saved, because if I choose to accept Him then couldn't I choose to be unsaved afterward if I wanted? I couldn't square having the choice to choose Him, but then be trapped, but then looked at all the verses saying Jesus would lose NONE the Father has given Him, and that NO ONE could snatch us out of His hand. No one? What if I choose to go with my "free will"?
What does "God is sovereign" mean to you? Want to define "sovereign" for me? Nobody has any problem with saying God is sovereign all day long, but when someone starts speaking about God like He's sovereign it causes chaos. Interesting. Also I am obviously not speaking of you, we're having a fine conversation, but generally this topic cause a lot of emotion. There are SO many other places that tell us faith is a gift from God, and that repentance is a gift and is "granted" from God. Just understand this "choice" you're claiming as your work in His plan, is truly you trying to claim some of His glory. Not good.
As far as this "drawing and God getting ALL glory for our salvation" subject, I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly, but is seems to me that you want some glory for yourself because "YOU choose", were I see it ALL His grace and power lest
I boast saying my choice was part of this. God gets ALL the glory, we get NONE. Do you think you could have chosen Him outside of His power? Because Paul and scripture disagree with you brother.
Romans 3 10-18
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now in Ephesians 2 4-10 we are told that being saved by grace through faith and.....wait for it......."this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast". Where do you read that it's our choice that saves us? Please don't get me wrong I believe we do have choice, we do have a will of our own, but what I am not saying is this life we live was designed and done before we are born? We have choice but our "will" is enslaved always. We are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, period. Disagree? Anyway lets read.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Honestly it sounds to me like you want to boast a little bit. Why does the idea that God gets the credit for your decision offend you so much? Why do you need to boast about your almighty choice? (making a point with a question not trying to be insulting, or insinuate you are literally thinking this or anything) I can't lie this whole "free will" debate had me so messed up when I believed like you. I thought like this, "I have free will right? So did I lose my free will when I got saved, because if I choose to accept Him then couldn't I choose to be unsaved afterward if I wanted? I couldn't square having the choice to choose Him, but then be trapped, but then looked at all the verses saying Jesus would lose NONE the Father has given Him, and that NO ONE could snatch us out of His hand. No one? What if I choose to go with my "free will"?
What does "God is sovereign" mean to you? Want to define "sovereign" for me? Nobody has any problem with saying God is sovereign all day long, but when someone starts speaking about God like He's sovereign it causes chaos. Interesting. Also I am obviously not speaking of you, we're having a fine conversation, but generally this topic cause a lot of emotion. There are SO many other places that tell us faith is a gift from God, and that repentance is a gift and is "granted" from God. Just understand this "choice" you're claiming as your work in His plan, is truly you trying to claim some of His glory. Not good.
Based on this page, I'd say 2865 sections.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PAE.HTM
The writers probably say they are all very, very important.
Section 841 was written with the whole of Catholic thinking up to that time in mind.
For example, they may have had in mind Thomistic hylomorphism. I wouldn't pretend to understand all of it, but it seems to deal with forms, or the question of what makes a thing or being that thing or being.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylomorphism#Thomistic_hylomorphism
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PAE.HTM
The writers probably say they are all very, very important.
Section 841 was written with the whole of Catholic thinking up to that time in mind.
For example, they may have had in mind Thomistic hylomorphism. I wouldn't pretend to understand all of it, but it seems to deal with forms, or the question of what makes a thing or being that thing or being.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylomorphism#Thomistic_hylomorphism
Something I wanted to correct from my last response to you. When I said "Where do you read that it's our choice that saves us?", I shouldn't have said it that way because you have not said it's our choice that saves us. I should have asked more like "Where does it say our choice plays a part in our own salvation", or even a verse that says we're able to choose God, because I see some that say the exact opposite. Anyway wasn't fair putting words in your mouth or building a straw man.
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My brother, what is ccc 841 relate to hylomorphism
And what is the different between Aristotle hylomorphism and Thomas hylomorphism
Quote
Many medieval theologians and philosophers followed Aristotle in seeing a living being's soul as that being's form—specifically, its substantial form. However, they disagreed about whether X's soul is X's only substantial form. Some medieval thinkers argued that X's soul is X's only substantial form, responsible for all of the features of X's body.[52] In contrast, other medieval thinkers argued that a living being contains at least two substantial forms—(1) the shape and structure of its body, and (2) its soul, which makes its body alive.[53]
End quote
A doctor my think brain is responsible for logic or memory
What happen if one die, is he able to think or remember anything
If so than soul is responsible for logic and memory.
It have nothing to do with ccc 841
And what is the different between Aristotle hylomorphism and Thomas hylomorphism
Quote
Many medieval theologians and philosophers followed Aristotle in seeing a living being's soul as that being's form—specifically, its substantial form. However, they disagreed about whether X's soul is X's only substantial form. Some medieval thinkers argued that X's soul is X's only substantial form, responsible for all of the features of X's body.[52] In contrast, other medieval thinkers argued that a living being contains at least two substantial forms—(1) the shape and structure of its body, and (2) its soul, which makes its body alive.[53]
End quote
A doctor my think brain is responsible for logic or memory
What happen if one die, is he able to think or remember anything
If so than soul is responsible for logic and memory.
It have nothing to do with ccc 841
Your conclusion only good in condition
Ask Muslim if wich God they worship
God in the Bible or god in the Quran
If they answer god in the Bible than you correct
Being from Muslim country where in my town of about 3000 only about 80 Christian, I know for sure, they worship god in the Quran. A god that say Jesus is not god and not die on the cross
Ask Muslim if wich God they worship
God in the Bible or god in the Quran
If they answer god in the Bible than you correct
Being from Muslim country where in my town of about 3000 only about 80 Christian, I know for sure, they worship god in the Quran. A god that say Jesus is not god and not die on the cross
I read about the term men read in a criminal law.
Quote
Wrongdoing generally requires two elements: a guilty act, actus reus, and a guilty mind, mens rea.
End quote
Example A accidentally droop a glass in the restaurant and brok it
That is actus reus or guilty act but not me non rea or guilty mind.
I believe ccc 841 is men rea or guilty mind
Catholic intend to attack the doctrine of pure Christian, Jesus is God and Jesus die on the cross
Say Muslim worship true god mean approve Quran that say Jesus not god
I believe catholic is not Christian and not intend to teach Christian doctrine et all
Yes they teach Jesus god, to make look like Christian.
counterfeit money must look like real money
So does counterfeit Christian
But if you investigate deeply you know catholic try to replace jesus
Read ccc 816
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
Quote
Wrongdoing generally requires two elements: a guilty act, actus reus, and a guilty mind, mens rea.
End quote
Example A accidentally droop a glass in the restaurant and brok it
That is actus reus or guilty act but not me non rea or guilty mind.
I believe ccc 841 is men rea or guilty mind
Catholic intend to attack the doctrine of pure Christian, Jesus is God and Jesus die on the cross
Say Muslim worship true god mean approve Quran that say Jesus not god
I believe catholic is not Christian and not intend to teach Christian doctrine et all
Yes they teach Jesus god, to make look like Christian.
counterfeit money must look like real money
So does counterfeit Christian
But if you investigate deeply you know catholic try to replace jesus
Read ccc 816
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
Thanks for the response, Jimbone!
Lots of interesting ideas in your post, but I'm somewhat confused as to how most of it relates to what I was saying.
Maybe if we back up just a bit, we can understand each other more. You had written
One of the questions I asked in response was
"So, as a person is being drawn in, what will it look like?"
But maybe a preliminary question is in order. When you say, "...once God draws them in…", is it your understanding that that drawing occurs instantly? Or is it a process over time?
Lots of interesting ideas in your post, but I'm somewhat confused as to how most of it relates to what I was saying.
Maybe if we back up just a bit, we can understand each other more. You had written
One of the questions I asked in response was
"So, as a person is being drawn in, what will it look like?"
But maybe a preliminary question is in order. When you say, "...once God draws them in…", is it your understanding that that drawing occurs instantly? Or is it a process over time?
It's all good, and I'm enjoying this discussion! I hope you are, too!
You asked
"Where does it say our choice plays a part in our own salvation"
I don't know that it does. Does the question relate to whether the Athenians had some knowledge of the true God, or does it relate to people who have never heard of Jesus having the possibility of heaven, or something else?
You asked
"Where does it say our choice plays a part in our own salvation"
I don't know that it does. Does the question relate to whether the Athenians had some knowledge of the true God, or does it relate to people who have never heard of Jesus having the possibility of heaven, or something else?
I don't know that it does. I used it as an example of the kinds of things that were no doubt on the minds of the people who wrote the lumen gentium.
The early church fathers, the various writings of the councils throughout the centuries, and many different philosophers such as Augustine, Aquinas, Scotus, etc.
These all form the backdrop for the lumen gentium and the CCC. So reading any formulation in isolation is likely to end in confusion and misunderstanding.
The early church fathers, the various writings of the councils throughout the centuries, and many different philosophers such as Augustine, Aquinas, Scotus, etc.
These all form the backdrop for the lumen gentium and the CCC. So reading any formulation in isolation is likely to end in confusion and misunderstanding.
They may acknowledge 'a creator' but they don't acknowledge 'thee Creator'. That is because they don't know Him.
Matthew 11:27 (KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 11:27 (KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
I don't think ccc 841 have anything to do with hylomorphism
Quote
hylemorphism) is a philosophical theory developed by Aristotle, which conceives being (ousia) as a compound of matter and form. The word is a 19th-century term formed from the Greek words ὕλη hyle, "wood, matter", and μορφή, morphē, "form".
End wuote
Being is compound of matter and form
Quote
Matter is everything around you. Atoms and compounds are all made of very small parts of matter. Those atoms go on to build the things you see and touch every day. Matter is defined as anything that has mass and takes up space (it has volume).
Quote
Aristotle is not Christian. Being like human being is compound body an soul. Is soul matter?
Is soul have a mass? Can you weigh the soul?
I don't think Christian must use world philosophy to interprate bible
Quote
hylemorphism) is a philosophical theory developed by Aristotle, which conceives being (ousia) as a compound of matter and form. The word is a 19th-century term formed from the Greek words ὕλη hyle, "wood, matter", and μορφή, morphē, "form".
End wuote
Being is compound of matter and form
Quote
Matter is everything around you. Atoms and compounds are all made of very small parts of matter. Those atoms go on to build the things you see and touch every day. Matter is defined as anything that has mass and takes up space (it has volume).
Quote
Aristotle is not Christian. Being like human being is compound body an soul. Is soul matter?
Is soul have a mass? Can you weigh the soul?
I don't think Christian must use world philosophy to interprate bible
What do you mean by Muslim understand their spiritual situation.
And what is that mean in your last sentence?
Certainly Muslim define who god is base on Quran. And god teaching is Quran that say Jesus not god
By say Muslim worship Christian god mean accused god as liar
An inconsistent God, tell Christian Jesus god and tell Muslim Jesus not god.
And that is ccc 841 do, attack and accused god lie
And what is that mean in your last sentence?
Certainly Muslim define who god is base on Quran. And god teaching is Quran that say Jesus not god
By say Muslim worship Christian god mean accused god as liar
An inconsistent God, tell Christian Jesus god and tell Muslim Jesus not god.
And that is ccc 841 do, attack and accused god lie
I was making a point between knowing about 'a' creator and personally knowing 'thee' (one and only) Creator.
There is only One Creator and we are to know Him personally. Religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Gaia etc., may acknowledge that there is a creator but they can only come into a personal relationship with that Creator through being born again...and that only through coming to Jesus as a sinner confessing one's sins and receiving Him as Savior.
There is only One Creator and we are to know Him personally. Religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Gaia etc., may acknowledge that there is a creator but they can only come into a personal relationship with that Creator through being born again...and that only through coming to Jesus as a sinner confessing one's sins and receiving Him as Savior.