Catholicism vs Protestantism

[southie]

Yep, they not hold abraham faith and catholic know it
Catholic deliberately mislead Muslim for political reason

Catholic work for lucifer to create one world religion to support one world government, the antichrist government

Look ccc 816

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

Instead of say no salvation apart from Jesus, catholic say no salvation apart from catholic

Try to replace Jesus with catholic church

The Catholic church

Spiritual blindness. The Jews had many false ideas. By the same token, they did not talk about an imaginary Purgatory. Nor indulgences. Nor a cash cow.

Cash cow? is that what our lord is talking about in Luke 11:41. or Luke12:47-48. Does not our Lord give an indulgence to the servant who knew not but was worthy of punishment.

 

[Jackson123]

The Catholic church

Cash cow? is that what our lord is talking about in Luke 11:41. or Luke12:47-48. Does not our Lord give an indulgence to the servant who knew not but was worthy of punishment.

Yes Catholic Church. Lumen Gentium issued by catholic church

 

[Dan_473]

So you don't believe Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator?

Are you asking for my opinion? Or for my opinion of what the lumen gentium says?

What is the definition in the plan of salvation?

It's not a phrase I normally use. Usually when people use it I think they mean God's plan to bring salvation to the world. When John the Baptist sees Jesus he says that Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone will be saved.
Do Catholics mean the same thing? I'm not sure. They probably mean the same thing or something similar.

Why LG say the plan of salvation include those who acknowledge the creator

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/QUOTE]
Do you remember a while back I asked you who the Catholics say are in the plan of salvation? I don't remember you giving an answer. Did you answer it? Is the plan of salvation limited to those who acknowledge the Creator, according to the lumen gentium? I think knowing who Catholics say are included in the plan of salvation will resolve this question!

To me it imply Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator
Is my conclusion wrong

That's why I asked you if it was explicitly stated or were it was an implication that you were seeing. So, what we have is an implication. Two people can read the same set of words and come away with different ideas of what was being implied. One reason I bring this up is I'm starting to suspect that the plan of salvation is actually really broad, basically intended by God to be extended to the whole world.

What is your conclusion?
Is that mean Muslim is not in the plan of salvation?

My conclusion is that I think once we resolve what is meant by things like
In the plan of salvation
and
Saved
that most of the issues that we are discussing here will be resolved!

But to answer your question directly, in my opinion some Muslims will be saved.

 

[Dan_473]

My question is : is muslim that deny Jesus as God, deny Jesus die on the cross, acknowledge the creator?

Well, I don't see that your response relates to what I wrote. Are you able to follow what I said? Did you want to comment on it?

But to answer your question, yes, I believe it is possible to deny that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross and at the same time acknowledge the Creator. Of course, they will be wrong about some of the characteristics of the creator.

But it's like this: if a person says that they believe in a creator. And then we say that there is just one creator. It's reasonable for us to say, then, but they are acknowledging the Creator. They may go on to say that the Creator is named Odin. So they would be wrong about that!
But, imo, it would still be reasonable to say that they are acknowledging the Creator, especially if that is taken to mean that they acknowledge that a Creator exists.

 

[Dan_473]

If you talking about romans 2 than statement

Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator not under romans 2

Romans 2 is for those that never hear Jesus/cepreator.

Well, again, I think it would be good to resolve the question of whether
In the plan of salvation
Means the same thing as
Saved
or not before we try to unpack what you're saying and how it might be different from what I'm saying!

 

[Dan_473]

Is the word "world " same as the whole world?

The question is for you, so whatever definition of the world you think John the Baptist is using!

 

[Jackson123]

Well, I don't see that your response relates to what I wrote. Are you able to follow what I said? Did you want to comment on it?

But to answer your question, yes, I believe it is possible to deny that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross and at the same time acknowledge the Creator. Of course, they will be wrong about some of the characteristics of the creator.

But it's like this: if a person says that they believe in a creator. And then we say that there is just one creator. It's reasonable for us to say, then, but they are acknowledging the Creator. They may go on to say that the Creator is named Odin. So they would be wrong about that!
But, imo, it would still be reasonable to say that they are acknowledging the Creator, especially if that is taken to mean that they acknowledge that a Creator exists.

So Acknowledging the creator but not acknowledging Jesus will include the plan of salvation ?

Now next step is

Together with us adore the one and merciful God, mankind judge ...

Do Muslim god same as Christian god

Mankin judge is jesus, do Muslim store Jesus as god?

Muslim not only don't believe Jesus as god but not die on the cross

Both are the main doctrine of christianity

Believe creator and his name is not only Odin but lucifer. Because attack Jesus. Bible say if one deny Jesus as god, it is not from the Holy Spirit. I believe lucifer behind Jesus attacker.

 

[Jackson123]

The question is for you, so whatever definition of the world you think John the Baptist is using!

What is your opinion?

 

[Jackson123]

Well, again, I think it would be good to resolve the question of whether
In the plan of salvation
Means the same thing as
Saved
or not before we try to unpack what you're saying and how it might be different from what I'm saying!

But you do believe creator is jesus don't you

Acknowledge the creator mean acknowledge or accept Jesus.

Romans 2 for those that never heard about jesus

If you believe Muslim acknowledge creator / Jesus so romans 2 not aplicable for muslim

 

[Jackson123]

Are you asking for my opinion? Or for my opinion of what the lumen gentium says?

Both

It's not a phrase I normally use. Usually when people use it I think they mean God's plan to bring salvation to the world. When John the Baptist sees Jesus he says that Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Of course, it doesn't mean everyone will be saved.

When john say Jesus will take away the sin of the world doesn't mean every body save. I agree
The Bible go on and say whosoever believe in him will be save. Not every body save, only whosoever believe in Him is.
So the plan of salvation include every body but salvation only for those who believe in Jesus.


Let compare with LG

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,
(So acknowledge the creator replace believe in Jesus)

in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

( it imply Muslim adore Jesus)

My comment, lg is replacement theology, replace Jesus with something else

 

[Dan_473]

So Acknowledging the creator but not acknowledging Jesus will include the plan of salvation?

Well, first we have to decide what the phrase
Included in the plan of salvation
means.

Now next step is
Together with us adore the one and merciful God, mankind judge ...

Do Muslim god same as Christian god

Certainly not in every respect!

Mankin judge is jesus, do Muslim store Jesus as god?

That's an example of where Muslims are wrong!

Muslim not only don't believe Jesus as god but not die on the cross

Another example of where they are wrong about history.

Both are the main doctrine of christianity

Muslims are not Christians.

Believe creator and his name is not only Odin but lucifer. Because attack Jesus. Bible say if one deny Jesus as god, it is not from the Holy Spirit. I believe lucifer behind Jesus attacker.

Yes, Satan is also at work in Christian churches, isn't he? He causes divisions and strife and all kinds of other works of the flesh!

 

[Dan_473]

What is your opinion?

Yes, I think John the Baptist is referring to the whole world.

 

[Dan_473]

But you do believe creator is jesus don't you

Acknowledge the creator mean acknowledge or accept Jesus.

Romans 2 for those that never heard about jesus

If you believe Muslim acknowledge creator / Jesus so romans 2 not aplicable for muslim

Jackson my friend, I'm starting to think that you're trying to avoid answering this question
Does
In the plan of salvation
Means the same thing as
Saved?

 

[Dan_473]

Both

my opinion is that I don't like to use the phrase
Plan of salvation.
In my opinion, it's just too vague.
I'm not sure exactly what the Catholic view of the plan of salvation is, but I don't think that they say explicitly that Muslims are part of it because they acknowledge the Creator.

When john say Jesus will take away the sin of the world doesn't mean every body save. I agree
The Bible go on and say whosoever believe in him will be save. Not every body save, only whosoever believe in Him is.
So the plan of salvation include every body…

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that! If the plan of salvation includes everyone, then Muslims are included as well! Of course, this doesn't mean that they are saved.

...but salvation only for those who believe in Jesus.

Yes, I agree. And for those who have never heard of Jesus, believing in Jesus might look different.

Let compare with LG

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,
(So acknowledge the creator replace believe in Jesus)

I don't see that implication at all.

in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

( it imply Muslim adore Jesus)

Again, I do not see that implication.

My comment, lg is replacement theology, replace Jesus with something else

I'm interested in hearing your answer to whether being in the plan of salvation means that a person is saved.
If you're thinking that the lumen gentium says that all Muslims are saved simply by following the basic tenets of Islam, then I can see why you'd be concerned!

 

[Jackson123]

• Certainly not in every respect!
• 
  
• If Muslim god not Christian god than Muslim not together with us adore one merciful God, mankin judge
• 
  
• So lumen gentium is lie.
• 
  
• 
  
• Jackson my friend, I'm starting to think that you're trying to avoid answering this question
  Does
  In the plan of salvation
  Means the same thing as
  Saved?
  No. Christian is in the plan of salvation, is that mean every profess Christian save?, but it mean Christian doctrine is a path of salvation

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, I think John the Baptist is referring to the whole world.

So you believe the world = the whole World

 

[Jackson123]

I'm not sure exactly what the Catholic view of the plan of salvation is, but I don't think that they say explicitly that Muslims are part of it because they acknowledge the Creator.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,

My comment
Acknowledge the creator make one in the plan of salvation.
You say, you believe according to John the Baptist the plan of salvation for every body, mean acknowledge god or not. So lg is a trap, try to make people, acknowledge creator have the same value to acknowledge Jesus.


in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;

My comment

Muslim deny Jesus as a God and die on the cross. To say Muslim adore Christian god is lie

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

 

[Dan_473]

If Muslim god not Christian god than Muslim not together with us adore one merciful God, mankin judge

I disagree, I don't believe that follows.
I don't think you have to agree about something 100% in order to be talking about the same thing.
For example, suppose I say that Japan is an interesting country. It's a very well-ordered society. People there like to watch anime. Many Japanese people carry guns when they go shopping.
Imo, in the example above, I'm talking about the same Japan that everyone else does. But, I'm wrong about the carrying guns.

No. Christian is in the plan of salvation, is that mean every profess Christian save?, but it mean Christian doctrine is a path of salvation

So if I'm understanding you right, you don't think that being included in the plan of salvation means that a person is saved. Good!

But I'm not sure if I'm understanding that next part. Are you saying that if a person is included in the plan of salvation, then that person's doctrine is the path to salvation?

In your view, who all is included in the plan of salvation?

 

[Dan_473]

So you believe the world = the whole World

In the context of John the Baptist used it in that verse, yes.

 

[Dan_473]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,

My comment
Acknowledge the creator make one in the plan of salvation.

is that what you are saying, or is that what you believe the Catholics are saying? If it turns out that in the Catholic view, the plan of salvation is intended to cover the entire world, then the Muslim belief in a Creator is not the thing that includes them in the plan of salvation.

You say, you believe according to John the Baptist the plan of salvation for every body,

No, I did not say that. I was using the verse about John the Baptist to see if you agreed that in that context, John was saying that Jesus came to take away the sins of the world. I brought that up because if that's the case, then it would seem that essentially you would be believing that the plan of salvation covers the whole world.

But I'm still waiting to hear your take on how you understand that verse!

mean acknowledge god or not. So lg is a trap, try to make people, acknowledge creator have the same value to acknowledge Jesus.

I don't think it's a trap, I think you are perceiving it as a trap because you have taken away the wrong implication. I think this is in part because you didn't read the entire lumen gentium, or at least have a good understanding of Catholic theology. Do you remember the quote about the danger of looking at a particular formulation in isolation?

in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;

My comment

Muslim deny Jesus as a God and die on the cross. To say Muslim adore Christian god is lie

Again, it depends how many things something has to have in common with something else to be called the same thing!

Maybe you have heard of this example: suppose you take a ship and replace one board on it with a different one. Is it still the same ship?

One Greek philosopher said you can't get into the same river twice.