Not By Works
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The difference between us is that you believe OSAS becomes UNSAVED.
But as said some of the posts recently did not reflect that. Like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and willful sin. I didn't get that. We all wilfully sin. But as belivers when we do we grieve the Holy Spirit not comit blasphemy.
But as said some of the posts recently did not reflect that. Like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and willful sin. I didn't get that. We all wilfully sin. But as belivers when we do we grieve the Holy Spirit not comit blasphemy.
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My beliefs pretty much align with old osas at least in "haven't believed to begin with", although I'm lately expanding my views and rethinking these things a lot. Not into new osas, and not into non osas either... rather, the more I read this thread, the more I am thinking that this whole gain and loss obsession and focus on benefits isn't the mind of Christ... and non osas and osas are both faulty by focusing on it. It's still the "what's in there for ME" the mindset that we need to get past. Chase the "good" avoid the "bad" that's the flesh mind that brought us here and we need to be freed from. Eve thought the fruit was profitable and "good for food and to be desired". Because that same mind that wants to possess things fears to lose these same things and that everything will be stripped from underneath them... God just uses warnings to work with this mind and speaks in this language, but it's actually something that needs to go. This is the mind which causes sin, people sin because they think they will gain something. Not necessarily only material wealth, but also non tangible "goods" like carnal pleasures or various satisfactions derived from human pride. It's the Babylon traders buying and selling, greed is the root of all evil. We need to forget our selves and worries about our selves and benefits we may receive from God salvation included. Relinquish all fear. If kingdom of God is put first, all else gets added. This is why salvation is a gift, it cannot be lost, but also cannot be owned, I think it's kind of a checkmate to both sides... There is safety only in relinquishing own life and burying one's self with Christ. If we have truly buried ourselves in Him, then there are no more deaths to fear.
They are.
In fact, it is the faith that finds it's expression in love for others that justifies:
"The only thing that counts (towards justification-see context) is faith expressing itself through love." - Galatians 5:6
Generally speaking, if your faith is not changing you into the image of Christ you do not possess the faith that justifies.
The kind of faith that justifies is the faith that causes you to loves others.
Meanwhile, the faith that does not love others is a faith that can not justify.
As you probably know, James calls that 'dead faith'--the faith that can not save.
In fact, it is the faith that finds it's expression in love for others that justifies:
"The only thing that counts (towards justification-see context) is faith expressing itself through love." - Galatians 5:6
Generally speaking, if your faith is not changing you into the image of Christ you do not possess the faith that justifies.
The kind of faith that justifies is the faith that causes you to loves others.
Meanwhile, the faith that does not love others is a faith that can not justify.
As you probably know, James calls that 'dead faith'--the faith that can not save.
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But do you willfully sin as the result of deciding you no longer want to trust and believe in Christ?
Probably not.
That is the willful sin that will get you on the wrong side of God's wrath again.
As long as your sin is not you consciously deciding you want nothing to do with Christ anymore you are not guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and trampling on the blood of Christ in contempt.
Probably not.
That is the willful sin that will get you on the wrong side of God's wrath again.
As long as your sin is not you consciously deciding you want nothing to do with Christ anymore you are not guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and trampling on the blood of Christ in contempt.
THE primary point of the whole Book is the superiority of Christ, and the sufficiency of His Blood Sacrifice.
Jesus is superior to the angels.
Jesus is superior to Moses and Aaron.
Jesus is superior to the Priests.
Jesus is superior to the Law.
But most especially, Jesus' Sacrificial death is not only Superior to animal sacrifices, and a return to the Law, but is ENTIRELY sufficient to not just COVER sins, but to TAKE THEM AWAY.
So to try and ADD to that perfect, sufficient sacrifice is actually trampling the Son of God underfoot, and insulting the Spirit of Grace.
"The JUST shall LIVE by FAITH"
This not only means we should live our lives in constant faith but also that we have ETERNAL LIFE BY FAITH NOT WORKS.
Read it like this :The just shall live ETERNALLY by Faith.
Jesus is superior to the angels.
Jesus is superior to Moses and Aaron.
Jesus is superior to the Priests.
Jesus is superior to the Law.
But most especially, Jesus' Sacrificial death is not only Superior to animal sacrifices, and a return to the Law, but is ENTIRELY sufficient to not just COVER sins, but to TAKE THEM AWAY.
So to try and ADD to that perfect, sufficient sacrifice is actually trampling the Son of God underfoot, and insulting the Spirit of Grace.
"The JUST shall LIVE by FAITH"
This not only means we should live our lives in constant faith but also that we have ETERNAL LIFE BY FAITH NOT WORKS.
Read it like this :The just shall live ETERNALLY by Faith.
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I'm pretty sure your a works to gain or maintain Salvation guy. I'm hoping to get you to see the sufficiency of Christ's Sacrifice, and how offensive it is to Him to say that YOUR works have ANYTHING to do with you becoming or remaining saved. Here is what you wote a couple of days ago. This belies a total lack of the point Jesus was making:
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Two HUGE takeaways from this passage that you seem blind to. Hoping this enlightens you.
1. Jesus tells them that He NEVER knew them. NOT that He knew them at one time, they then neglected to do enough works so He left them. HE NEVER KNEW THEM!!!
2. Notice these did NOT say "Lord, Lord, did we not put our faith in who YOU are, and the work YOU did?"
No. These guys did NOT do the will of the Father. Which is to believe on His Son, Jesus Christ. They presented THEIR dead works to Christ. Which He utterly and angrily rejected!
1. Jesus tells them that He NEVER knew them. NOT that He knew them at one time, they then neglected to do enough works so He left them. HE NEVER KNEW THEM!!!
2. Notice these did NOT say "Lord, Lord, did we not put our faith in who YOU are, and the work YOU did?"
No. These guys did NOT do the will of the Father. Which is to believe on His Son, Jesus Christ. They presented THEIR dead works to Christ. Which He utterly and angrily rejected!
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You are CONFUSING Regeneration (BORN AGAIN) with SANCTIFICATION. SANCTIFICATION does not happen in an INSTANT, but is a LIFELONG PROCESS, but Born Again certainly DOES happen in the MOMENT you genuinely receive JESUS as LORD, which means MASTER.
John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.
THERE is REGENERATION, and NOTICE the HOLY SPIRIT only causes our HUMAN SPIRIT to be BORN AGAIN, not the body.
Therefore SANCTIFICATION, TAKES A LIFETIME TO BECOME MORE AND MORE LIKE CHRIST, and only when we get resurrected, does our body become SINLESS.
Try to make YOUR FALSE THEORIES Square with these SCRIPTURES:
Philippians 3:12-16 (NIV)
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Romans 7:13-25 (HCSB)
13 Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment, sin might become sinful beyond measure.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.
If you do not have that Internal WAR between the Mind of you HUMAN SPIRIT, and the Mind that you have BETWEEN YOUR EARS; you are not BORN AGAIN and ARE NOT YET SAVED. Yes the Spirit Mind will get stronger as we study HIS WORD, and SUBMIT to the TEACHING OF HIS WORD, but the Sin Nature (Corrupt Nature) is still IN THIS FLESH UNTIL IT DIES.
The GLORIFIED BODY given to us at the Resurrection, will be the FIRST BODY that we have that CANNOT EVEN THINK SIN!
As far as I am concerned, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT INNER WAR GOING ON IN THE BODY, you are just kidding yourself, and YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, and ARE NOT SAVED.
I do pretend that I know a lot about them, but Early last year the person that monitors is thread, recognized the theology and banned 3 of them. They believe in Evolution, and think Genesis is just Symbolism, as well as other parts of the BIBLE.
I guess they never did read:
Romans 1:20-22 (HCSB)
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools
&
Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,
NO BACK DOOR, they pretend to be one of us, and then after awhile, they try to sneak their strange Theology in the conversation, to get people to follow them.
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Hebrews 10 is not about adding to the ministry and Sacrifice of Christ.
It's about continuing to believe in the ministry and Sacrifice of Christ because it is better than the ministry of the first covenant.
The Spirit of grace is insulted when the person sanctified by the blood of Christ continues in deliberate sin. It says "no sacrifice for sins is left" when they do that. They lose the benefit of the sacrifice of Christ they had, and says all they have to look forward to is the wrath of God reserved for His enemies.
"24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:24-29
And because this is true about Jesus, we should continue to believe in Jesus. That is what the author says:
"14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14
"23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:23
This is not a letter exhorting them to not add self righteous works to the work of Christ on the cross.
It is a letter exhorting the church to continue to believe in Christ and live for Him in obedience and not give up, because His Priestly ministry and sacrifice offers a better hope and is so much better than the old priestly ministry and sacrifice.
It's about continuing to believe in the ministry and Sacrifice of Christ because it is better than the ministry of the first covenant.
The Spirit of grace is insulted when the person sanctified by the blood of Christ continues in deliberate sin. It says "no sacrifice for sins is left" when they do that. They lose the benefit of the sacrifice of Christ they had, and says all they have to look forward to is the wrath of God reserved for His enemies.
"24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:24-29
And because this is true about Jesus, we should continue to believe in Jesus. That is what the author says:
"14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14
"23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:23
This is not a letter exhorting them to not add self righteous works to the work of Christ on the cross.
It is a letter exhorting the church to continue to believe in Christ and live for Him in obedience and not give up, because His Priestly ministry and sacrifice offers a better hope and is so much better than the old priestly ministry and sacrifice.
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...AND to love one another:
"23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23
The latter is what He is saying they did not do in regard to His will.
He called them "evildoers".
They had no works of righteousness, just works of ministry.
But surely this is because they were not saved and not known by Him.
And I think that is the point finepearl is making.
I'm confident he is not saying works are necessary because they earn salvation.
Works are necessary because they are the expected and obligatory outcome of having faith in Christ.
People who have genuine faith have works of righteousness, summed up in the command to love others.
Faith changes a person into a new creation, a new creation that works (Ephesians 2:10)
And that's how works are necessary and those works not be earning salvation.
The footprints of one's faith are seen in one's obedience to God's will to love others.
No footprints of faith means there is no faith present to make those footprints.
Your works are how saving faith will be discerned when Christ returns.
That has nothing to do with works earning salvation.
Dead works would be defined as the acts of the flesh:
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death." - Romans 7:5
"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. " - Galatians 5:19-21
I'm confident they did not present these dead works of the flesh as evidence of their relationship with Christ (unless they were doing that to prove they were 'not working' and trying to earn their own salvation, lol). What they presented were outward works of service to Christ, not their works of obedience to Christ. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The sacrifice of your service proves nothing about your faith in Christ. It's not what he'll be looking for at the Judgment when he sorts the goats from the sheep and the righteous enter into the kingdom.
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice" - Matthew 9:13
"to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices" - Mark 12:33
.
"23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23
The latter is what He is saying they did not do in regard to His will.
He called them "evildoers".
They had no works of righteousness, just works of ministry.
But surely this is because they were not saved and not known by Him.
And I think that is the point finepearl is making.
I'm confident he is not saying works are necessary because they earn salvation.
Works are necessary because they are the expected and obligatory outcome of having faith in Christ.
People who have genuine faith have works of righteousness, summed up in the command to love others.
Faith changes a person into a new creation, a new creation that works (Ephesians 2:10)
And that's how works are necessary and those works not be earning salvation.
The footprints of one's faith are seen in one's obedience to God's will to love others.
No footprints of faith means there is no faith present to make those footprints.
Your works are how saving faith will be discerned when Christ returns.
That has nothing to do with works earning salvation.
Dead works would be defined as the acts of the flesh:
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death." - Romans 7:5
"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. " - Galatians 5:19-21
I'm confident they did not present these dead works of the flesh as evidence of their relationship with Christ (unless they were doing that to prove they were 'not working' and trying to earn their own salvation, lol). What they presented were outward works of service to Christ, not their works of obedience to Christ. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The sacrifice of your service proves nothing about your faith in Christ. It's not what he'll be looking for at the Judgment when he sorts the goats from the sheep and the righteous enter into the kingdom.
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice" - Matthew 9:13
"to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices" - Mark 12:33
.