I’m verifying Scripture. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. You simply cannot win an argument against that Scripture.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I believe yes you would. Salvation in Christ is not about having perfect faith. Anxiety is something many Christians struggle with along with anxiety about their salvation. The presence of that anxiety doesn't make a person not saved.
I don't think I do actually. If you have anxiety that is not the same as not having faith.
This is Romans 5:20.
It mentioned that the law entered that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. Where sin abounded, not where sins abounds (presently).
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Once we believe in Christ we are no longer ungodly sinners.
This is summed up in Romans 6:
[1]...Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?...Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
If you're in a restaurant and they refuse to serve you, will you get any food?
Likewise, when sin comes to sit down at the table of your mind, we should not feed its desires.
Something to think about.
You're reading into what I've said things that aren't there. Loss of salvation isn't even in my mind when I speak of the necessity of works. I never said the gift was conditioned on our performance, but that there should be no objection to someone calling for righteousness as a basic obligation irrespective of the gift of salvation. We're discussing James right now which tells us that claiming to have faith while not having works proves the claimant a liar. At issue is not God's end, but whether it is possible to have true saving faith without works being demonstrated. What I have maintained all along is simply that if there are no works there is no faith, meaning works are a requirement in that respect. Not once have I said God would remove the gift of salvation, the danger comes from having our consciences seared and despising the gift and giver as a result ending with them rejecting it. Unless you are going to go all the way and claim that all are saved there are conditions on the gift and those conditions are not some big mystery known only to God in their entirety but it is received by those who desire righteousness.
Yes.
At this point I think Hebrews 10 is the definitive non-osas passage.
It talks plainly about what happens to the person sanctified by the blood of Christ who then tramples on the blood in willful contempt (a.k.a. unbelief).
Yes, and that is the key to understanding that he is not talking about never losing salvation, but rather that Christ's ministry will never let you down, like the old system did, and for that reason you should continue to trust in it for salvation. Hebrews has nothing to do with not being able to lose your salvation. Hebrews is about the salvation you would do well to not lose because of unbelief.
The old system did have an answer for your next sin, but 1) it couldn't cure you of your propensity to sin, and in fact aroused it, and 2) it had to be repeated over and over again, and 3) it could only forgive the sin that could be forgiven through that old covenant system of sacrifice (some sin it could not forgive).
The new Covenant 1) cures you of your propensity to sin by putting the power of the flesh to death, 2) has a Sacrifice that doesn't have to be repeated, you simply continue to believe and trust in the one Sacrifice of Jesus already made, and 3) His Sacrifice can forgive ALL sin (except unrepentant blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, of course).
I can when you say that scripture means you can make grace a license to sin in unbelief and contempt for Christ with impunity.
I'm not saying you are doing that.
I'm saying the new osas doctrine says you can do that if you want and you will remain saved.
Paul did not teach that gospel.
We know that by this simple scripture:
"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" - 1 Corinthians 15:2
Even the old osas acknowledges that one has to remain in their believing to be saved.
It just believes that the true believer can not stop believing, and that if you do stop believing and go back to your life of sin and unbelief it shows you were never saved to begin with. The old osas in no way shape or form made grace a license to go back to unbelief and still be saved.
And I was going to point that out to you.If you have anxiety that is not the same as not having faith.
Doubt is not unbelief.
It can lead to a decision to not believe/ trust in Christ anymore, but in and of itself doubt is not unbelief.
You can doubt and still be trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
But you can not be trusting and believing in Christ at the same time you are not trusting in believing in Christ.
Simply put it's the belief that nothing at all, not any sin whatsoever, no amount of unbelief and contempt for Christ can cause the one who believed somewhere in the past to lose his salvation. That is the new osas sweeping through the church today. It's attractive. It's ear tickling. But it's entirely false.
The old osas says the person who doesn't change and who stops believing was never saved to begin with.
Non-osas simply says that person no longer has the effectual ministry of Christ applied to him in his unbelief. He has lost the benefit of the believing he did.
Typo correction:
...at the same time you are not trusting and believing in Christ.
Sorry.
What's your beef?
Is it that t your docrinal beleif is satanic or that you are not a child of God or both?
No beef.
@Lightskin didn't think there are people here who subscribe to the new osas doctrine in the church today.
He wanted the names of these people and proof they believe it.
Instead of spending hours hunting down posts I thought I'd just ask the various osas believers here if they agreed with decontroversal's post that showed he did believe in the new osas doctrine.
I wanted to add your opinion of the matter to the list.
I suspect you are old school osas, not new osas.
Am I right?
Chime in.
Let us know.
What gives you the impression he believes in the new OSAS as you understand what it means?
I do not think he does. If he genuinely believes that we can sin all we want and still be saved then I would have addressed that with him.
I think you confused the issue you presented earlier.
Willfully sinning as a result of unbelief, one who willfully sins habitually with no regards I would say never had belief to start with.
Yet one who wilfully sins but hates it and calls out to God for help (like me) and did not reject the sacrifice Jesus made and seeks him then I say it's covered. And Gods timing is perfect
I know it's perfect because I have experienced it and now walk in it.
I got it from our discussions.
He is free to clarify anything that needs to be clarified.
Other people also seem to believe in the new osas.
I'm having them chime in so @Lightskin and I can see who does and who doesn't believe in it.
He doesn't think anyone here believes it.
And that's what I thought you'd say.
You subscribe to the old osas.
Thanks for answering.
I absolutely never said that. I emphasized that it is not the overwhelming trend of people here on CC.
This is a very dangerous doctrine. To say that the Blood of Christ is not sufficient for the forgiveness of all sin, and belief in THE Gospel is not enough for Salvation, is exactly what the author of Hebrews addresses and warns about.
Please be careful pushing that doctrine.
@Judges1318 , I think that love for Jesus and faith in Jesus are connected. Faith being more than mental assent but also love for the Savior.