Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

Elderdave · Apr 25, 2020

Hi. this debate has raged on for centuries. i did a very therough bible study on this topic. it is very lengthy, but i deal with both topics and rightly divide the word on them. If you have your mind made up as to what you want to believe: then this study is not for you! because no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary of what yo want to believe: you will not accept it or believe it! But if you have an open mind and only what to know what the truth is on these two topics: then this study is for you!
I start with the negative then the positive later on. please do not post any replies to this, or ask any questions concerning it, until you have read all of it! for i answer all questions and objections in this study! if after reading you have unanswered questions: (which is unlikely) please feel free to ask them. i will answer them. but please do not ask questions that have already been answered in this study.
So for the intellectually honest, and only the intellectually honest people i have attached my study for their reading pleasure.

CharliRenee · Apr 25, 2020

Rut Roh, 😯 🤯, the topic that has been hashed about here, it seems, more than any other.

You have put a lot of time and effort, so I am taking the time to read your input. 😀 I agree with you on this. It is an ongoing debate that never seems to end.

I will also say this...all verses, every last one, are used to bring His promises to pass. I rest in this as I keep, with the help of the Faithful Shepherd, my heart fixed on the One.

It is good that we keep on Believing, Praise the Lord because our Salvation belongs to Him. He tells us to keep on believing. It makes perfect and simple sense to me.

Do we keep Jesus is the better way for me to look at it. Salvation is secondary to just being with Him. He is the prize, so if He tells us to keep our focus on Him, drawing near. I sure as heaven am going to be intentional and invested because we do that with the ones we sincerely Love, so especially with Him, our number One.

If there are conditions, it too makes sense. They are designed, in my understanding, to test our hearts condition.

Again for His purposes and our well-being.

notuptome · Apr 25, 2020

Well you have stated what has been wrongly stated many times before. The butterfly cannot go back to being a caterpillar. Born new in in Christ can never go back to the adversary.

Next time start with a study of grace and learn of God's mercy for then you will surely arrive at a different conclusion.

Nice to know what you think but you are wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Runningman · Apr 25, 2020

Elderdave said:

I can tell you put a lot of work in this and thank you, but the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews; people practicing Judaism, not Christians. This key detail is important. The entire book is a sermon intended to persuade the audience about why Christ is the truth. The first set of verses you quoted begins with "it is impossible" meaning that it doesn't happen ever. It goes on to state that sinning recrucifies Christ again and again. Christ only crucified once, therefore the verse is rhetorical.

I recommend doing a thorough study on Hebrews with this information in mind.

In context of who the audience is, people who again and again sacrifice animals for the removal of sins, the writer's point is that Christ is not crucified repeatedly. The writer elaborates this point by saying that the blood of bulls and lambs is inadequate to do what Christ's one sacrifice did.

"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:14 ESV

Notice in Hebrews 10:14 that those who are being sanctified are perfected for all time. Notice it does not say "perfected for a year" or "perfected until they sin again." or "perfected until a Christ is crucified again." Etc. One sacrifice to make Christians spiritually perfect while going through an ongoing sanctification process.

You posted a lot of material so I'll just focus on that part and maybe that will offer you a fresh perspective. God bless and take care.

MattforJesus · Apr 25, 2020

Elderdave said:

Are you telling me that of all the people who claim Christianity for centuries that nobody has ever known the truth, and whatever they believe is the truth is not the truth, until this study on it.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation(does not sin): for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and they will not be tempted as hard as the world, and God will give them an escape from the temptation, so there is no excuse.

If they sin to repent of it, and get rid of it, and move forward in the Spirit, and have the right attitude that they cannot hold unto sin and be right with God.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If they hold unto sin then there is no salvation, and the blood of Christ cannot wash it away, and they will be cut off like the Jews that did not go by the Old Testament and held unto sins unless they correct it and get rid of their sins.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

And the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, although they were future events.

And all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The saints predestined to salvation means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He started creation, but this salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

For God commands all people to repent, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.

And the Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation.

And Jesus lights every person born in to this world, so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

Many are called, but few are chosen, so God does the calling and choosing on earth.

God's kingdom is true love so we have to make the choice to follow God, and He is not evil to condemn people who have no choice but to reject the truth.

God chose us we did not choose Him.

When God calls a person He will work with them to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to go through it for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life to lead them to the truth.

Which no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But some people did not walk through the door of truth, but have a form of godliness but deny the Spirit leading them for they hold unto sin and believe they are still right with God, and ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These are the people Jesus will say I never knew you for you work iniquity.

Judges1318 · Apr 25, 2020

notuptome said:

No, but it can die.

Judges1318 · Apr 25, 2020

Runningman said:

Which is exactly why we should continue to believe in such a great Priest and Sacrifice:

"23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, (why?) for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:23 (parenthesis mine)

"14 since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

See? Being perfected one time for all time doesn't mean you can't lose the effectual one time for all time ministry of Christ. It means Christ's ministry doesn't have to be repeatedly performed and gets the job done the first time for all time, unlike under the old system, and that's why you should continue to believe and trust in it.

To keep the ministry that doesn't need to be repeated you have to keep believing in it. Even Calvinistic style osas says this much. The new 'Freegrace' osas says you do not need to keep believing in it to have the lasting effects of Christ's ministry continually applied to you. Meanwhile, non-osas says you have to keep believing in the ministry of Christ to remain saved by the ministry of Christ, and that you can indeed stop believing in Christ.

Micaiah-imla · Apr 25, 2020

Elderdave said:

What you wrote is correct.

Someone here stated that the book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew people. This is incorrect and leads to further doctrinal error in my estimation.

The topic of the book of Hebrews is to explain to believers (whatever race) the superior nature of Christ's sacrifice and to grow them in the knowledge of the old testament shadows of Christ. And whatever warnings contained therein are for all believers as well (as you rightly pointed out).

notuptome · Apr 25, 2020

Judges1318 said:

Same thing with the seed that sprouts and then dies because it has no root. It had life but did not prosper so it died. Christians without roots in God's word wither and die but they remain Christians.

A dead butterfly is still not a caterpillar.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Judges1318 · Apr 25, 2020

notuptome said:

In your statement above, does 'die' mean 'no longer trust and believe in Christ'?

notuptome · Apr 25, 2020

Judges1318 said:

No it means to die and go into the grave.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Judges1318 · Apr 25, 2020

notuptome said:

Okay.
You subscribe to the new osas then, apparently.
Correct me if I'm wrong about what you believe.

Whispered · Apr 25, 2020

Elderdave said:

This made rounds some time ago and was copied by many a Bible study student. I hope it helps you. In short, no, you can never lose your Salvation. That's why it is called Eternal Life.

(Got questions video below)

For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)

*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)

notuptome · Apr 25, 2020

Judges1318 said:

I subscribe to God's eternal promises. My salvation is not dependent on me but on Christ.

If man is responsible for the keeping then man can boast and salvation becomes a function of works not grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Judges1318 · Apr 25, 2020

notuptome said:

No, our responsibility is to rely on the one who keeps us.
And no where in scripture does it say that relying on Christ in faith is a work of the works gospel that can not justify.
In fact, Paul makes it quite clear that relying on Christ in faith is the exact way that you are justified and is diametrically opposed to justification through works of the law.

MessageOfTheCross · Apr 25, 2020

“10 Wherefore the rather, Brethren, give diligence to make your Calling and Election sure (this is what Jesus was speaking of when He told us to deny ourselves and take up the Cross daily and follow Him [Lk. 9:23]; every day, the Believer must make certain His Faith is anchored in the Cross and the Cross alone; only then can we realize the tremendous benefits afforded by the Sacrifice of Christ): for if you do these things, you shall never fall (presents the key to Eternal Security, but with the Promise being conditional):

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the Everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (The entrance into the Kingdom is solely on the basis of Faith evidenced in Christ and the Cross [Eph. 2:13-18; Jn. 3:16].)” 2 Peter 1

JSM

Elderdave · Apr 26, 2020

It is obvious that many of you are responding to the topic without reading the study! thus your comments are totally meaningless!
The book of hebrews was written to christians who happened to be hebrews! it is not a book that is trying to make non-believers believers: but a book to teach believers about Jesus's divinity, and the importance of walking in obedie
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
once to Him! and to warn them of the possibility of losing it all! and giving them specific circumstances under which they could forfeit it! consider this passage '
this language that is being used cannot describe an unbeliever! for only believers have been enlightened. only true believers cant tast the heavenly gift. only true believers can be made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. so this is a WARNING to true believers to not fall away! the consequence for falling away is that they cannot be renewed to repentance. to make it clear: the writer of Hebrews is warning true christians not to fall away, or it will be impossible for them to repent again! Now the falling away that is being talked about here is the sin of apostasy. it is trampling the gospel under your feet, by denying it and going back into the world.

My dear brothers and sisters, Please read the study that i have attached. it explains everything! please stop giving wothless opinions that have no knowledge behind them! The consequence you could face for such lack of love for the truth could be an eternity in hell!
God said 'my people perish for a lack of knowledge'!

God bless

David

Elderdave · Apr 26, 2020

the above post is inaccurate. i tried to delete it but could not. so here is the correct reading:

It is obvious that many of you are responding to the topic without reading the study! thus your comments are totally meaningless!
The book of hebrews was written to christians who happened to be hebrews! it is not a book that is trying to make non-believers believers: but a book to teach believers about Jesus's divinity, and clarify the differance between the old covenant and the new covenant. and the importance of walking in obedience to Jesus, and to warn them of the possibility of losing it all! and giving them specific circumstances under which they could forfeit it! consider this passage

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
'
this language that is being used cannot describe an unbeliever! for only believers have been enlightened. only true believers can tast the heavenly gift. only true believers can be made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. so this is a WARNING to true believers to not fall away! the consequence for falling away is that they cannot be renewed to repentance. to make it clear: the writer of Hebrews is warning true christians not to fall away, or it will be impossible for them to repent again! Now the falling away that is being talked about here is the sin of apostasy. it is trampling the gospel under your feet, by denying it and going back into the world.

My dear brothers and sisters, Please read the study that i have attached. it explains everything! please stop giving wothless opinions that have no knowledge behind them! The consequence you could face for such lack of love for the truth could be an eternity in hell!

tantalon · Apr 26, 2020

All the promises of God are yea and amen- towards the obedient, the fruitful, and the overcomer. Four types that forfeited their gift of life, can be examples found in the parable of the talents, ( Matt.25: 24 and verse30). Another in 1 Cor. 3: 15-17. (the NIV changes the meaning of the word fire, as an escape through the flames) let me assure you this is not a wood fire and there will be no escape. the unpardonable sin is another, and Revelation 22: 18,19. The warning of losing salvation in verse 19 is referring to only the book of Revelation, and not the whole Bible, which of course had not been compiled yet.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 27, 2020

Eternal - Without end, Forever,
Life, as opposed to death,

A life which will never end, a person who has it will never die.

How is it obtained?

By Faith (living faith, not just mere belief) By asking

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 4:
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” ...........35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. .......................... 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” ................... 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” ................54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” ............ 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. ...............
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

It is something we have already been given,

John 10: 28 - And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand

John 17: 3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 John 1: 2 - the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 John 2: 25 - And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5: 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5: 13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is evidenced by those who are made righteous, and changed creatures who do the works of God

Matt 25: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Rom 2: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

1 tim 6: 12 -
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

It is a gift, which can not be earned by our good works.

Rom 6: 23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And it is the hope of which our faith is base on

Titus 1: 2 - in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Titus 3: 7 - that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

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