Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Dan_473]

I think, Paul say they have wrong concept about God and Paul will correct it.

Exactly! The same God, but some wrong ideas about him.

They don't worship Jesus if they worship Paul god they not worship idol

That's correct that they didn't worship Jesus, but they cannot worship someone they haven't heard about.
It is possible to worship both the true God and give honor to false gods as well, as the people living in Samaria were doing.
2 Kings 17: 33 They gave worship to the Lord, but they gave honour to their gods like the nations did from whom they had been taken as prisoners.

 

[Jackson123]

Right!
Romans 2: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life.
If that applied to some Athenians, it makes sense to me that it would also apply to some Hindus and Muslims.
I think the Quran talks about Jesus, but someone in a strict Muslim society, have they really heard about Jesus? I would say no, of course God is the judge.
But Muslims have an advantage over Hindus and Athenians, imo, and that they acknowledge a Creator who is merciful. And I think that's what the lumen gentium is getting at.

Muslim is more cunning than Hindu or athenians

They profess worship mercifull god but denied the very mercy act of God

The very mercy act of God is die on the cross to make salvation happen.

Do you ever see counterfeit money?

People that make counterfeit money try what ever they can to look like it

But look like money doesn't mean money

Deny Jesus is the worse sin ever and not the fruit of worship the creator

But Muslims have an advantage over Hindus and Athenians, imo, and that they acknowledge a Creator who is merciful. And I think that's what the lumen gentium is getting at.

Not advantage but disadvantages. Hindu never say Jesus not die on the cross, Muslim did

To say god is merciful in the same time deny merciful act of God is cunning and danger

So I don't believe what lg say that it make Muslim in the plan of salvation. It make lg cunning statement

I believe lg design to create one world religion.

 

[Dan_473]

1 you misunderstood me because I make mistake

What I try to say is

The statement :A "Muslim in the plan of salvation."

Do not mean only Muslim that never heard Jesus in the plan of salvation.

I think the sentence you are wanting to write is "Muslims are in the plan of salvation."
When we read that, our first question is, "Which Muslims?" All Muslims, or just a few? It doesn't specify. So I agree that it doesn't necessarily refer to those Muslims who have never heard about Jesus. However, it could.

So Muslim in the plan of salvation not because never heard Jesus, but profess abraham faith.

Now in your mind, does the sentence
"Muslims are in the plan of salvation"
Equal
"All Muslims are saved"?

2. Muslim in the plan of salvation do not mean every profess Muslim save
It similar to Christian in the plan of salvation, not every profess Christian save.

If you mean
"Muslims are in the plan of salvation. This does not mean that every professing Muslim is saved", then I agree!

 

[Jackson123]

Exactly! The same God, but some wrong ideas about him.


That's correct that they didn't worship Jesus, but they cannot worship someone they haven't heard about.
It is possible to worship both the true God and give honor to false gods as well, as the people living in Samaria were doing.
2 Kings 17: 33 They gave worship to the Lord, but they gave honour to their gods like the nations did from whom they had been taken as prisoners.

To worship God, Mann have to know how.

Because God not only want to be worship, but also dictate how to worship Him.

For example, not make statue and bow into when worship Him, if you do then it will not consider worship but blasphemy.

Leviticus 26:1
26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.

 

[Dan_473]

What you define abraham faith, that you believe Muslim hold abraham faith

There are many different ways, as I believe I have said before. Let's go with this one, at least for now: the faith of Abraham is believing that there is only one God, and he will do what he says!

Is muslim worship abraham god?

Sure, in the same sense that the Athenians were worshiping the same God that Paul was going to give them more details about!

 

[Dan_473]

God will take in to account to save Muslim?

Definitely a possibility! As the righteous judge, God will take everything into account, I believe!

 

[Jackson123]

Muslims are in the plan of salvation. This does not mean that every professing Muslim is saved", then I agree!

Yes, but wich Muslim save?

 

[Dan_473]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

According to catholic the plan of salvation include those who acknowledge creator.

Definition of acknowledge
1.accept or admit the existence or truth of.
"the plight of the refugees was acknowledged by the authorities"

1. 2.
   (of a body of opinion) recognize the fact or importance or quality of.
   "the art world has begun to acknowledge his genius

Who is creator?
John say

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Creator is jesus.
Is Muslim accept Jesus ?
Is muslim believe Jesus as the creator? NO

So Muslim not acknowledge the creator

Are you part of a "Jesus only" group, or do you accept the Trinity?

Here's an example
Genesis 2: 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens
Is Jesus exactly the same in every respect as the Lord in that verse?

 

[Jackson123]

There are many different ways, as I believe I have said before. Let's go with this one, at least for now: the faith of Abraham is believing that there is only one God, and he will do what he says!

Believe only one God doesn't necessery worship true god

 

[Jackson123]

Are you part of a "Jesus only" group, or do you accept the Trinity?

Here's an example
Genesis 2: 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens
Is Jesus exactly the same in every respect as the Lord in that verse?

I am first baptis

Definitely a possibility! As the righteous judge, God will take everything into account, I believe!

Muslim deny Jesus as god so unless it never heard Jesus, god not consider to save them, or you believe salvation apart from Jesus.

At least you admid lg say something not biblical

 

[Jackson123]

Definitely a possibility! As the righteous judge, God will take everything into account, I believe!

This righteous judge say, salvation not by work but by faith in Jesus.

 

[Dan_473]

The requirement to be save is not believe only one God, but believe Jesus.

I agree! But if we read the lumen gentium carefully, it doesn't say that Muslims are saved, rather that they are also included in the plan of salvation.

Muslim believe one god that tell mohammad , Jesus not die on the cross.

Right, just like the Athenians, they are wrong about some of the details of God.

So Muslim god salvation happen because Jesus willing to die on the cross so Muslim god attack the foundation of Christian faith
Believe there is one God but not believe Jesus do not mean better than other.

Well, we disagree there.
Acts 17: 22 Paul stood in the middle of the Areopagus, and said, "You men of Athens, I perceive that you are very religious in all things.
There are various ways to translate that verse, but I think the best way indicates that Paul is complimenting the Athenians on their attempts at seeking ultimate truths.

Acts 17: 27 that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

So someone who acknowledges that there is one God, even if they also believe wrong things about that God, is better off because they are doing a better job of seeking.

 

[Dan_473]

Muslim is more cunning than Hindu or athenians

They profess worship mercifull god but denied the very mercy act of God

The very mercy act of God is die on the cross to make salvation happen.

Do you ever see counterfeit money?

People that make counterfeit money try what ever they can to look like it

But look like money doesn't mean money

Deny Jesus is the worse sin ever and not the fruit of worship the creator




Not advantage but disadvantages. Hindu never say Jesus not die on the cross, Muslim did

To say god is merciful in the same time deny merciful act of God is cunning and danger

So I don't believe what lg say that it make Muslim in the plan of salvation. It make lg cunning statement

I believe lg design to create one world religion.

Have you heard the phrase
Apples and oranges?
It's like, which is better, an apple or an orange? Well, they're very different!
I hear what you're saying about Muslims, but Hindus and pagans have ways of being sneaky too, I think.
Hinduism and Athenian paganism are both older than Christianity, so it's no surprise that their "scriptures" don't mention Jesus.
Islam, however, grew up in the shadow of the Byzantine empire, so it makes sense that it's going to say stuff (wrong stuff) about Christianity.

 

[Jackson123]

I agree! But if we read the lumen gentium carefully, it doesn't say that Muslims are saved, rather that they are also included in the plan of salvation.

Right, just like the Athenians, they are wrong about some of the details of God.

Well, we disagree there.
Acts 17: 22 Paul stood in the middle of the Areopagus, and said, "You men of Athens, I perceive that you are very religious in all things.
There are various ways to translate that verse, but I think the best way indicates that Paul is complimenting the Athenians on their attempts at seeking ultimate truths.

Acts 17: 27 that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

So someone who acknowledges that there is one God, even if they also believe wrong things about that God, is better off because they are doing a better job of seeking.

To my knowledge only Jesus is the way to salvation. The only exception is if they never heard about Jesus.

Seeking God but not accept Jesus is not save.

You believe Christian is in the plan of salvation don't you?

Than you believe Muslim is in the plan of salvation

What is the different?

You believe mean both not automatically save

 

[Jackson123]

Have you heard the phrase
Apples and oranges?
It's like, which is better, an apple or an orange? Well, they're very different!
I hear what you're saying about Muslims, but Hindus and pagans have ways of being sneaky too, I think.
Hinduism and Athenian paganism are both older than Christianity, so it's no surprise that their "scriptures" don't mention Jesus.
Islam, however, grew up in the shadow of the Byzantine empire, so it makes sense that it's going to say stuff (wrong stuff) about Christianity.

And because Muslim attack the very foundation of Christianity ( salvation happen because Jesus die on the cross) so Muslim is more danger then Hindu.

It doesn't make any different, Muslim believe one God or not, Muslim attack the very mercy god act, die on the cross to buy our pardon.

 

[Dan_473]

To worship God, Mann have to know how.

Because God not only want to be worship, but also dictate how to worship Him.

To worship him in spirit and in truth, for sure!

But we may wish to notice what Paul says here
Acts 17: 23 ...an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.'
Paul basically goes on to say that they are on the right track, but they need some corrections here and there. But the Athenians of course, had many other idols around in that area.

We can see, too, that the Samaritans were worshiping both the Lord and other gods as well.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, but wich Muslim save?

Of course God is the judge, but I believe this is a clue
Romans 2: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life.

 

[Dan_473]

Believe only one God doesn't necessery worship true god

I believe you would ask me what the faith of Abraham was, so I gave you an example.
Romans 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

You are correct that believing in one God doesn't mean you necessarily believe in the true God. But we may wish to remember that the Athenians believed in more than one God, yet Paul basically says that he is going to give them some more details about the God that they are worshipping!

 

[Dan_473]

I am first baptis

Baptists generally believe that Jesus is God, but not that Jesus is all persons of the trinity. I agree that Jesus is credited with creation, at the same time
Revelation 4: 11 "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!"
Here we see that it is the one who is sitting on the throne that is credited with creating all things. This being is presented as separate from Jesus.
So to say that someone who believes in one God who created all things, but is misinformed about Jesus, is then not believing in the true God as creator, is not necessarily true, imo.

Muslim deny Jesus as god so unless it never heard Jesus, god not consider to save them, or you believe salvation apart from Jesus.

I think there are probably Muslims, I don't know if it's a few or most (God knows), who haven't heard an accurate message about Jesus.

At least you admid lg say something not biblical

I have no idea why you would conclude that!

 

[Dan_473]

This righteous judge say, salvation not by work but by faith in Jesus.

True! And for those who have never heard of Jesus?
Possibly this will apply
Romans 2: 6 (God) "will pay back to everyone according to their works:" 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life.