Tithing

[DBurrage]

Good day everyone,

Thank you for accepting me on to your website.

I'd like to use my first post to seek outside counsel on the subject of tithing.

I used to attend a Hillsong Church here in the UK, but left partly due to my not being able to reconcile their teaching with my own research of the Bible.

While I was at the Church I had the confidence to put my head above the parapet and directly challenge the prosperity gospel teaching of the Church.

I forwarded a document (attached) to somebody in the Church that outlined my opinions on tithing, backed up by Bible research.
I received the same document back with comments (also attached).

I would appreciate any feedback or comment.

 

[DBurrage]

Thank you to the moderators who have just approved this thread

 

[biker]

Nothing wrong with supporting a Church that you attend for the purposes of helping them keep the building in decent condition and the utilities paid. Nothing wrong with giving so the full time pastor has a salary. That is giving, and we should be happy to give. But nowhere in the New Testament is there an actual example of tithing. With that said, there is nothing wrong with wanting to give God at least 10% of what He has blessed you with. But nowhere is it a command to tithe. There are many examples of giving and none for tithing in the New Testament.

 

[DBurrage]

Nothing wrong with supporting a Church that you attend for the purposes of helping them keep the building in decent condition and the utilities paid. Nothing wrong with giving so the full time pastor has a salary. That is giving, and we should be happy to give. But nowhere in the New Testament is there an actual example of tithing. With that said, there is nothing wrong with wanting to give God at least 10% of what He has blessed you with. But nowhere is it a command to tithe. There are many examples of giving.

I agree, all summed up in the 2 page document I put together - attached above

 

[biker]

In my opinion, we can learn from when Eshu (Jesus) was watching people giving and he said, the poor widow who gave 2 mites gave more than the rest. And the rest were standing there with gold trinkets, fat pockets full of coins, just being an obnoxious example. I think the reason Eshu did not speak on tithes is what is happening in many churches today. A service takes place and the offering plate has been passed and when someone looks at who gave and what they gave, sometimes those who give more get positions in the church they do not deserve. And clearly God does not want people buying their calling, but have it given to them for being a true follower of God.

 

[Dino246]

Welcome to CC...

One quick thought; I may have more later.

Circumcision was also given to Abraham, and clearly is not required under the new covenant, so the idea that tithing is a "principle" still in effect, when the NT says nothing about it, is a very weak argument.

You're on the right track. You handled your concern well, and although I think the elder(s) responded respectfully, I also think they are incorrect. "Tithing" is just the wrong word because it inherently carries a lot of baggage. Just give as you feel it is right to do so.

 

[DBurrage]

Welcome to CC...

One quick thought; I may have more later.

Circumcision was also given to Abraham, and clearly is not required under the new covenant, so the idea that tithing is a "principle" still in effect, when the NT says nothing about it, is a very weak argument.

You're on the right track. You handled your concern well, and although I think the elder(s) responded respectfully, I also think they are incorrect. "Tithing" is just the wrong word because it inherently carries a lot of baggage. Just give as you feel it is right to do so.

Hey Dino,

Thanks for your reply.

I had read a number of threads on these forums prior to joining and I saw your name pop up a number of times.
You seem to have a knack for drilling down to the truth without unnecessary pedantry.

I really appreciate you giving your thoughts both on what I said in the 2-page document, and what I received as a response.
Yes, I'd really appreciate if you let us know more of your thoughts.

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

[posthuman]

Good day everyone,

Thank you for accepting me on to your website.

I'd like to use my first post to seek outside counsel on the subject of tithing.

I used to attend a Hillsong Church here in the UK, but left partly due to my not being able to reconcile their teaching with my own research of the Bible.

While I was at the Church I had the confidence to put my head above the parapet and directly challenge the prosperity gospel teaching of the Church.

I forwarded a document (attached) to somebody in the Church that outlined my opinions on tithing, backed up by Bible research.
I received the same document back with comments (also attached).

I would appreciate any feedback or comment.

their response is interesting. i don't think you were actually taken very seriously, but given 'off the cuff' talking points like 'calling an obligation a joy makes it not really an obligation anymore, even tho it is, we just want you to feel good about it rather than bad!'

several times they brought up Melchizedek, with the assumption that Abraham paid tithes. as though to implicate that 'tithing' is an obligation that predates and ((therefore supposedly, by tacit assumption)) is greater than the law. a third assumption then becomes implicit, that what predates the law is not made void by the freedom purchased for us through the cross.

Dino already pointed out that circumcision predates the law, but is specifically called not only valueless but potentially blasphemous in the NT. another point to be considered about Melchizedek receiving a tenth is what it was he received: one-time spoils of war, which had been looted from the cities in the plain of Sodom & Gomorrah, and recovered when Abraham & his servants went out to bring back the people. there is no indication that Abraham made any sort of practice of regularly giving goods or coin to Melchizedek, rather, the circumstances of the text are far more indicative that this was a kind of free-will thanksgiving offering to God, who had helped him in battle. Melchizedek Himself is either a Christophany or a powerful type of Christ, and spread a table before Abraham in the field where his enemies had fallen. this is not emblematic of the tithe in the Mosaic covenant, at all.

when our garden produces herbs and fruits, i'd like to bring a portion of them to a local church and put them in the plate when they pass it around. so far, my wife has shot down my ideas. she considers that it would do more potential harm than good.

another thing on the subject that you may not have discovered yet -- if you read Leviticus 27, you will find that if a person paid a tithe with money, they were to add 1/5 of the value as assessed by the priest, according to the temple shekel. since churches now collect 'tithes' in practically no other form but cash money, according to scripture ((if we grant the absurd premise that they are right to collect tithes)) they should be collecting 12% not 10%. so far i have never heard a single preacher bring this up.

anyhow welcome to CC -- i think you are on the right page about tithing. it is a loaded word, with very specific Biblical meaning, and it's my opinion that it is a tremendously abused word in our age, in a sickening way, making merchandise of the gospel. in some cases purposefully, and in others ignorantly perpetuating -- but it's something the church is not wise about. i agree with all the points you made in your document

 

[DBurrage]

their response is interesting. i don't think you were actually taken very seriously, but given 'off the cuff' talking points like 'calling an obligation a joy makes it not really an obligation anymore, even tho it is, we just want you to feel good about it rather than bad!'

several times they brought up Melchizedek, with the assumption that Abraham paid tithes. as though to implicate that 'tithing' is an obligation that predates and ((therefore supposedly, by tacit assumption)) is greater than the law. a third assumption then becomes implicit, that what predates the law is not made void by the freedom purchased for us through the cross.

Dino already pointed out that circumcision predates the law, but is specifically called not only valueless but potentially blasphemous in the NT. another point to be considered about Melchizedek receiving a tenth is what it was he received: one-time spoils of war, which had been looted from the cities in the plain of Sodom & Gomorrah, and recovered when Abraham & his servants went out to bring back the people. there is no indication that Abraham made any sort of practice of regularly giving goods or coin to Melchizedek, rather, the circumstances of the text are far more indicative that this was a kind of free-will thanksgiving offering to God, who had helped him in battle. Melchizedek Himself is either a Christophany or a powerful type of Christ, and spread a table before Abraham in the field where his enemies had fallen. this is not emblematic of the tithe in the Mosaic covenant, at all.

when our garden produces herbs and fruits, i'd like to bring a portion of them to a local church and put them in the plate when they pass it around. so far, my wife has shot down my ideas. she considers that it would do more potential harm than good.

another thing on the subject that you may not have discovered yet -- if you read Leviticus 27, you will find that if a person paid a tithe with money, they were to add 1/5 of the value as assessed by the priest, according to the temple shekel. since churches now collect 'tithes' in practically no other form but cash money, according to scripture ((if we grant the absurd premise that they are right to collect tithes)) they should be collecting 12% not 10%. so far i have never heard a single preacher bring this up.

anyhow welcome to CC -- i think you are on the right page about tithing. it is a loaded word, with very specific Biblical meaning, and it's my opinion that it is a tremendously abused word in our age, in a sickening way, making merchandise of the gospel. in some cases purposefully, and in others ignorantly perpetuating -- but it's something the church is not wise about. i agree with all the points you made in your document

Hey Posthuman,

Thanks for your reply

What are your thoughts about the part when the Church 'elder' says:
"Back to giving… Jesus talks about giving repeatedly. Your statement appears to circumnavigate the biblical principle of giving and generosity. It is not merely paying a bill for a service. Giving corrects our hearts; gives space for us to honour; and God uses it as a tool to align ourselves with him. The fact that money is used to pay bills etc is neither here nor there when we give. I am honouring my Father with my tithe/giving. [actually, in the OT, sometimes they would watch their sacrifice literally go up in smoke. That’s like taking a pile of money and setting it alight on an alter!! In the same way, when we give, we also give away the right to control what that money is spent on… that is not our responsibility but the leaders we are encouraged to pray for. Fun ]"

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts generally, but specifically on the part where the elder, in the above paragraph, says
"In the same way, when we give, we also give away the right to control what that money is spent on… that is not our responsibility but the leaders we are encouraged to pray for."
Sounds like pure manipulation to me?

 

[Diakonos]

Whoever made this document forgot to mention the 1st tithe recorded in the Bible (Genesis 14). Abram gave a tenth of all he had to Melchizedek (Jesus). This was before the Law and Moses.

 

[Guojing]

Good day everyone,

Thank you for accepting me on to your website.

I'd like to use my first post to seek outside counsel on the subject of tithing.

I used to attend a Hillsong Church here in the UK, but left partly due to my not being able to reconcile their teaching with my own research of the Bible.

While I was at the Church I had the confidence to put my head above the parapet and directly challenge the prosperity gospel teaching of the Church.

I forwarded a document (attached) to somebody in the Church that outlined my opinions on tithing, backed up by Bible research.
I received the same document back with comments (also attached).

I would appreciate any feedback or comment.

Nice documents, I have read them. As others have stated, Abraham, Issac and Jacob tithed to the Lord before the Law was given so your focus on the Law was a bit too narrow.

 

[Dino246]

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts generally, but specifically on the part where the elder, in the above paragraph, says
"In the same way, when we give, we also give away the right to control what that money is spent on… that is not our responsibility but the leaders we are encouraged to pray for."
Sounds like pure manipulation to me?

To this section of the elder's response in particular: I don't sense that it is manipulative, but I do see a potential absence of accountability. The elder is correct that the congregant is to surrender the offering, entrust it to the church, and pray for its wise disbursement. However, if the congregant has no say whatsoever in the nature of disbursements, he or she may not feel engaged or included, but rather like a cash cow. Church leaders are still human, and need accountability. I simply would not attend a church where the congregation could not hold its leaders accountable. The congregants don't "control" the money, but they rightly hold accountable those who do.

Ultimately, this matter is between you and God. He alone knows your capacity, and you and He alone know your financial responsibilities. The church can call obligation "fun" all it likes, but it's still obligation, and no amount of euphemism will make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Give as you feel God telling you to give, both in the local church and to other ministries that God puts on your heart. As you have opportunity, challenge the weak and unbiblical ideas that the church holds. Because you differ with the official position, be cautious about sharing your views with others; not that you should avoid doing so, but ensure it's with the right spirit.

 

[DBurrage]

Whoever made this document forgot to mention the 1st tithe recorded in the Bible (Genesis 14). Abram gave a tenth of all he had to Melchizedek (Jesus). This was before the Law and Moses.

This point has already been addressed in this thread.

 

[Dino246]

Nice documents, I have read them. As others have stated, Abraham, Issac and Jacob tithed to the Lord before the Law was given so your focus on the Law was a bit too narrow.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of these three "tithed to the Lord before the Law". Abraham gave a tenth of the war spoils to Melchizedek, not to the Lord. Nothing is said about Isaac, and while Jacob promised to do so, that promise was conditional, and there is no evidence in Scripture that he followed through.

 

[Guojing]

There is absolutely no evidence that any of these three "tithed to the Lord before the Law". Abraham gave a tenth of the war spoils to Melchizedek, not to the Lord. Nothing is said about Isaac, and while Jacob promised to do so, that promise was conditional, and there is no evidence in Scripture that he followed through.

I think we have discussed this previously in another thread.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ans-suppose-to-do.189589/page-10#post-4131802

 

[posthuman]

Whoever made this document forgot to mention the 1st tithe recorded in the Bible (Genesis 14). Abram gave a tenth of all he had to Melchizedek (Jesus). This was before the Law and Moses.

see the second document. that's the gist of the church elder's reply

-- it seems to me clear that for the person replying to the OP, Abraham giving a tenth part of the spoils that had been taken from Sodom to Melchizedek is the thing that convinces him personally that giving regular monetary donations to a church = tithe and that Christians should feel compelled to do it. i would guess that that person also believes regularly sitting in a pew on sundays watching the worship band whose salaries your tithes pay is equally obligatory, and constitutes sabbath observance.

 

[posthuman]

Hey Posthuman,

Thanks for your reply

What are your thoughts about the part when the Church 'elder' says:
"Back to giving… Jesus talks about giving repeatedly. Your statement appears to circumnavigate the biblical principle of giving and generosity. It is not merely paying a bill for a service. Giving corrects our hearts; gives space for us to honour; and God uses it as a tool to align ourselves with him. The fact that money is used to pay bills etc is neither here nor there when we give. I am honouring my Father with my tithe/giving. [actually, in the OT, sometimes they would watch their sacrifice literally go up in smoke. That’s like taking a pile of money and setting it alight on an alter!! In the same way, when we give, we also give away the right to control what that money is spent on… that is not our responsibility but the leaders we are encouraged to pray for. Fun ]"

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts generally, but specifically on the part where the elder, in the above paragraph, says
"In the same way, when we give, we also give away the right to control what that money is spent on… that is not our responsibility but the leaders we are encouraged to pray for."
Sounds like pure manipulation to me?

it sounds like you gave him pause when you said that you recognize the fact that keeping the doors open and the electricity on pragmatically means there's an operating budget that the church body should provide for. he started thinking about all the things the church spends money on, and how the needs of the operation of the church actually compare to the amount of 'giving' it asks for.
because you didn't say anything about 'controlling what money is spent on' -- did you? that objection he's replying to appeared in his own mind. he's giving excuses for questions you didn't even ask.

______________________

 

[Dino246]

I think we have discussed this previously in another thread.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ans-suppose-to-do.189589/page-10#post-4131802

That wasn't me. I read your comments, and hold to what Scripture actually states on this matter; nothing.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I'm still waiting for some "spoils"

 

[Dino246]

see the second document. that's the gist of the church elder's reply

-- it seems to me clear that for the person replying to the OP, Abraham giving a tenth part of the spoils that had been taken from Sodom to Melchizedek is the thing that convinces him personally that giving regular monetary donations to a church = tithe and that Christians should feel compelled to do it. i would guess that that person also believes regularly sitting in a pew on sundays watching the worship band whose salaries your tithes pay is equally obligatory, and constitutes sabbath observance.

Worship bands get salaries? I gotta join your church!